"Intercourse/PIV is always rape, plain and simple."

[partialderivative]

I was trying to find out what piv sex meant when I came across this blog.

witchwind.wordpress.com/2013/12/15/piv-is-always-rape-ok/

I was rather taken aback by its premise.

Other quotes include:
...intercourse is NEVER sex for women...
...intercourse is inherently harmful to women and intentionally so...

Is this a commonly held view point amongst feminists? Or just the extreme radical side.

I am not posting this to be goady, if anything quite the opposite.

@Buffy: I totally didn't even notice. However, if a woman obtained a penis with violence, and then raped another woman with it ... that would still be rape in legal terms, wouldn't it?

@PitPat: What a horrible story ... though I do think even for transmen with a happier childhood, it is often about getting out of patriarchal oppression. I have read dozens of blog posts by butch lesbians who state that, if the transgender movement had been as active in their youth, they might have identified as transmen.

Oooh, that's an upsetting story Pit.

Fwiw and tmi, I prefer(red, I've more or less given up for now) PIV and do not experience it as submission unless I'm acting something out. I don't think any of my partners have been bothered about this - they probably didn't even know. But it would be ridiculous to base any discussion on my experiences alone. For one thing, my experiences have been quite varied and, for another, I'm not so daft that I can't see how many other perspectives there are.

Do you mind it I pick this up?
"It's not okay to hate men" ... why not? Why shouldn't we hate men, as a class, for all they have done, and are doing to women on a daily basis?

To restate the obvious, this is why the word patriarchy comes in useful. It's too easy to read "hate men as a class" as "hate all men", which is clearly not the same thing. Patriarchy is the system that favours men. It's perpetuated by individuals of all genders, including Pit's friend above, and affects everyone. But not all men are patriarchal, and not all men seek to unfairly use their patriarchal advantages.

Buffy/Cailin - I am not going raking back through the whole thread but this quote catches my eye.

"Posters here are trying to look at the whole cultural expectation of PIV in sexual relationships, and examining to what extent it forms such a pressure - on women in particular - that it could be called coercion.

The prevalence and strength of this expectation allows for several arguments that it can be called coercion. "

That is saying women in general are having PIV because they are expected to - not because they want to for themselves. In fact it goes back to say PIV is rape because its only happening because of 'coercion'.

That is utter rubbish. Its simply not true.

It's a question!

OK, you reckon you know the answer with no further examination. Fine. That's no reason to keep telling all the posters here to stop posting.

Don't worry Buffy I realised that. Thanks for saying though.

The things we discussed during that friendship made me think very deeply about what we are conditioned to accept and social transmission.

Vestal that's a really good way of putting it "getting out of patriarchal oppression". That really encapsulates what I was trying to say clearly and succinctly. The lengths he had to go to and was prepared to go to get out of patriarchal oppression.

I was made uncomfortable at times by the thought that he was prepared to become the oppressor, rather than challenge the paradigm (by this I mean his preferences for sex that looked like rape, ending a relationship over being refused anal penetration rather than his transition). Then, his early attempts to challenge the paradigm by speaking up about the abuse met with total maternal rejection so i can see that being a huge pressure to find a way to conform whilst still avoiding being penetrated/being powerless.

His mother's anger with him when he spoke up and her dismissal and minimising of the abuse he suffered was so deeply hurtful to him. She went totally NC after he came out as lesbian, later they had some family counselling to reconcile, she threatened to withdraw from it and it made a huge dent in him. He made changes to his appearance (less dyke, more male- he could really pass, even before transition) to make her more comfortable and the therapy continued. She gave him a substantial amount of money to clear debts, go into rehab again and buy a house, then he transitioned and the relationship got better and better as he became professionally successful. His mother said that his professional success made it easier to see him in a "male " role so his being transgender was easier to accept than his being a lesbian.

To restate the obvious, this is why the word patriarchy comes in useful. It's too easy to read "hate men as a class" as "hate all men", which is clearly not the same thing. Patriarchy is the system that favours men. It's perpetuated by individuals of all genders, including Pit's friend above, and affects everyone. But not all men are patriarchal, and not all men seek to unfairly use their patriarchal advantages.

They don't have to seek to unfairly use their patriarchal advantages, they have them, and will use them, without even trying.

I do not waste my time by talking to people who don't get that no woman individually hates "all men". (How would one even do that? The accusation is often made, but it is mostly hurled at women who simply do not wish to have sex with men. That's what is declared "hate" if a woman is doing it. I have never ever met, or even heard of a woman, online or in real life, who wanted to kill all men.)

People who believe in the "all feminists are evil man haters and soooo much wooorse than patriarchy" dogma are not worth talking to, nothing will convince them that feminism is about justice - they usually believe that justice means men get three quarters of the cake and women get one.

@PitPat: I understand why you were uncomfortable, I would be, too. One should get therapy for trauma, not reenact it on other people. But I get why s/he thought that therapy was no solution, considering what happened. It is a messed-up system that produces that kind of transman.

Genuinely horrified by the "ended a relationship with a girlfriend because she wouldn't let him penetrate her anally, even after...him helping her get on the London property ladder". What should property and anal sex have to do with each other? It shows how clearly for him sex, rights and money have become inextricably linked, in a way I kind of hoped was gone for good.

I know a lot of women (mid to late20's/ early 30's) who don't think feminism= man hating, but they don't really know what the point of it is either. Like socialism. Or communism. They see these as things that belong to the 60s/70s and aren't relevant anymore.
I don't blame men per se for their advantages, it's like being white, you're born that way and privilege comes with it. Always much less likely people notice inequality/fight for equality when they hold the power.

Always much less likely people notice inequality/fight for equality when they hold the power.

Only that, unlike white people and racism, men usually know, and even live with women who experience patriarchal oppression daily.

There are a few men who actually apply critical thinking to their privileges and ask themselves: "Why should my wife have to feel unsafe when walking home alone at night? Can't that be fixed?", or "Wait, why should my wife have to take hormones that have severe side effects when I could just use a condom?"

However, if I look at forums, I get the impression that many, maybe even most men, actively embrace their male privilege. They simply do not love the women in their lives. And I absolutely do blame them for that, as it is dishonest.

Ah, I haven't read any forums. I think those sort of places attracts the wankers.
Is there a feminist book thread on here? I have looked but haven't seen one.

I was actually referring to forums like mumsnet. I know one German language forum that is, allegedly, for women, just like mumsnet, but where there are all sorts of wankers. (The number of entitled males on there is stunning!)

There is a feminist book thread on here, not on feminist chat, but on another feminist forum - might be feminist theory.

You make a fair point, VV. From my personal experience alone, however - the proportion of men who do get it is higher than I thought. And I do mean in all age groups; my 90-year-old stepfather gets it.

The change, again speaking personally, came about through therapy. My earlier conditioning led to my holding a ferociously patriarchal world-view which, despite my feminist activism, I hadn't really noticed I held. Non-patriarchal men kind of escaped my view. I think I would've assumed they were pretending! Now I'm able to notice and appreciate non-patriarchal people, while also being more acutely aware of unconscious bias in others.

... which I suppose is vaguely relevant, in that I seem to be saying I have, in therapy, partially addressed the "thought invasion" discussed above.

Oh, sorry- was not referring to you all as wankers! I shall slink off now and look for that book thread.

Wish have a look at this thread

"[penis is vagina sex] is always rape"

This sort of thing is why a lot of people are distancing themselves from feminism.

All you are doing is alienating people who could otherwise support you.

"I know one German language forum that is, allegedly, for women, just like mumsnet"

mumsnet is for women only? So why does the slogan say "by parents for parents"? Shouldn't it be changed to "by mothers for mothers?"

""[penis is vagina sex] is always rape"

This sort of thing is why a lot of people are distancing themselves from feminism.

All you are doing is alienating people who could otherwise support you."

What, by saying repeatedly that we don't agree, and that it is an incredibly niche viewpoint? How does that work, then?

Mumsnet is for women and men, other than the rest of the internet (with some exceptions I don't know about, likely), which is for men only.

@BertrandRussell: We are alienating people who could otherwise support us by being feminists, plain and simple, no matter what opinion we may hold on the "PiV is always rape" statement. I bet we would get more support if we became MRAs while stilll calling ourselves feminists.

If "get support" is our end goal.

I reject any and all "helpful" suggestions of how to "alienate" less people.

People who care about women will be feminists regardless of what they think of other feminists.
People who do not care about women will never be feminists. Their opinion does not matter.

emmawink1 - that's exactly what I think.

Feminism really doesn't help itself sometimes.

Bertrand* "How does that work then?"

By discussing it in terms on this thread that suggest (if not in complete agreement) that somehow they agree normal hetero sex between men and women in loving sexual relationships is somehow an expression of patriarchal domination of women and if not exactly rape it is always a coercive act on some level.

Believe it or not many millions of women in mutually consensual relationship really like PIV. Sometimes they don't feel up to it and they tell their male partner. Oh and believe it or not many millions of men in mutually consensual relationship really like PIV. Sometimes they don't feel up to it and they tell their female partner.

I think we should just leave this thread to the blokes to pat themselves on the back on how well they are telling women how to do feminism.

It's all about the men after all.

Feminism really doesn't help itself sometimes.

Feminism is better off without people who "don't support feminism" just because some feminist somewhere has dared to say something critical about PiV.

Either you believe that women are human, or you don't. If you opinion is so dependent on what some single feminist on the internet writes, you are doing feminism wrong.

"Believe or not" is a fairly inane thing to post when several posters on the thread have also said they like PIV.

But if you don't like the thread, start another few on various feminist topics and see if they get bumped ahead of this one. Might be more productive.