Raping Asian girls worse than raping white girls because it 'harms their marriage prospects' :o

[OTheHugeManatee]

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A judge has just ruled that a man who raped Asian under-13s should receive a longer sentence, because the victims' families were now worried about their marriage prospects. In other words, damaging these girls' property value in the marriage 'market' actually counted in terms of assessing the damage done by raping them.

I think this is horrific. Not just because virginity should have no bearing on the value of a girl or woman, but also because implicitly it seems to support the notion that underlay the belief of the Rotherham rapists that white girls were 'trash' who could be abused freely because they were already devalued. Like it's OK to rape white girls because they have no trading value.

I get that feminism coexists quite uneasily with cultural diversity, and this is a very difficult area to navigate, but really feel like this needs a feminist response.

I read the judgment. I am not that familiar with English law and procedure, but why was it even necessary to introduce the cultural elements to defend this sentence? I know that US criminal justice systems come in for a lot of criticism, but in my US state, he would have had a much longer sentence for sexually assaulting children, and no further justification for the sentence would be needed.

I think it is difficult to use external context, cultural and otherwise, as part of victim impact in sexual assault cases without raising the specter of relative value of victims. In addition, the worst of the impact may not manifest itself for many years for quite a few victims so it's a very inexact approach.

I am not an absolutist about many things, and I do have problems with a lot of the mandatory sentencing laws in the US, but with sexual violence, I am inclined to agree with the lock 'em up and throw away the key approach.

I agree with you completely here Seneca:

I think it is difficult to use external context, cultural and otherwise, as part of victim impact in sexual assault cases without raising the specter of relative value of victims. In addition, the worst of the impact may not manifest itself for many years for quite a few victims so it's a very inexact approach.

I don't understand where the bit about raping asian girls being 'worse than raping white girls' came from!

It is a sad fact that asian victims will be victimised further in the asian society and it is high time for that culture and mentality to change. The paedophile who did this knew very well the impact it would have on these girls' lives. Is what happened to these girls worse than if it was white girls? No. Their future however, due to the culture they come from, is much more bleak than the choices and options available to white girls. The asian culture is responsible for the further victimisation of these girls.

slugs it's about the offender more than the victims, and about how he knew he was doing something extremely degrading and shameful within that culture.
Oh, so he thought it was fine to rape white girls; he didn't think that was degrading? And you don't think he should be punished for this view?

Element, that's an unfair interpretation.

Old, I see where you are coming from, however, I still have a huge problem with the description "performing oral sex" as this is the description for an act with free consent. It's similar to the problem with calling something "child pornography" instead of "filmed child abuse"

Also, the crime against the younger girl was described as sexual assault; I doubt that would cover simply watching something. And the review stated that if the judge had considered the crimes individually, she could have gone up a category. I don't know what that means but it implies something (even more) serious.

It does beg the question, though - what would the sentence have been, if he had raped and abused white girls? To me, it does suggest that the judge would have thought that, as it wouldn't be considered that white girls would have been as degraded and shamed within their communities, his sentence might have been lower.

If he says, I have added to his sentence because he raped asian girls, in the full knowledge of how their community would view them afterwards, and how they'd be shamed, the corollary of that, to me, is that white girls would have deserved a lower sentence for their attacker, because they might not be shamed in the same way.

As I said last night, victim impact should be taken into account at sentencing, but to say one group of victims will deserve a heavier sentence for their attacker than others just sounds wrong to me - because if you flip it round, it is saying that rape and abuse is not as bad, not as traumatic for white girls/non-asian girls - and I cannot see how it can be acceptable to tell anyone that their rape wasn't as bad!!

There was a huge furore a while back, when a public figure (perhaps a judge, I can't remember) said that rape that didn't involve violence was better than rape that did - to me, this seems like the same thing - putting value judgements on different rapes, and effectively telling one person, or group of people that they don't have as much right to feel hurt, traumatised or to get justice, as another group.

Rape is a violent act, the collective whole needs to stop thinking rape as a crime of passion. Oh the menz couldn't control themselves as she has a skirt on. I think the majority of MN users would agree.

The judge was also an Asian Muslim maybe that had some bearing on the sentencing.

I see what some of you are saying in that it devalues someone else's rape if they are not in a community like the girl in question is. But I still see it as something that has added extra impact the same way as someone who would suffer panic attacks or mental health problems after.

We don't say oh that victim didn't suffer less because she seems to of picked herself up and isn't suicidal and so her rape wasn't as horrific, so why would we say oh she's white with a supportive family so her rape wasn't as horrific.

The judge was also an Asian Muslim maybe that had some bearing on the sentencing

that actually makes the decision worse.
She should not be sentencing applying her personal perspectives.

Your last paragraph is however exactly what this sentence says.

Dividing women against each other. That old chestnut.
I hate it.

And yes, it's imying that certain women and girls are trash. The judge doesn't specify whether it's black girls, white council estate girls, Thai girls whose mothers have been brought over for marriage, or what? All we learn from this is that the pain of raped women and girls is judged as different if the men they are associated with behave as though their property has been tarnished

I find this appalling. I think the judge should be removed from the bench.

implying

the judge was neither Asian nor Muslim, she was white

Yonic Do you mean saying he thought it was 'fine' to rape white girls is an unfair misinterpretation? I'll agree that he may have known that was wrong too (but some men really don't think that... have you seen those awful websites?) but the rest stands.

Suppose it was a white British man who'd raped a nun (and the white girl). A sweet, lovely nun who'd devoted her life to good works... In a way, there is an initial reaction of extra revulsion because of the life of chastity and so on. But isn't that just a prejudice; the other side of the coin from saying the other victim isn't as 'pure' and valuable, somehow?

Now, the websites I mentioned... pro-rape and stuff. I think there was a discussion on here a while back that set me googling and it was horrifying. Anyway, it was all about how it was ok to rape certain women and girls because they are just worthless sluts. I remember one of them was giving examples of who they wouldn't rape - and one was "the middle aged virgin going to church" (or v similar wording.)

IMO saying something akin to "he knew rape was extra bad in this person's culture" is following the same principle.

Pro-rape websites exist?!

There was an attempt at one on Reddit but it went nowhere. The only posts were, I understand, pointing out how vile the idea was.

There may be such sites in the cesspit of the Internet where illegal porn exists. I don't know.

If someone was raped and the offender used a weapon to threaten them this is an aggravating factor

This is a very different kind of aggravating factor than using relative cultural context.

It is so problematical even from a linguistic standpoint. You say it is "extremely degrading." As opposed to what? "Moderately degrading?" "Mildly degrading?"

On the nail Seneca

It is the perpetrator of a rape who is degraded , not the victim. It's a pity neither the judge nor the appeal judge seems to tackled it from that point of view.

link to petition again

Libby purves has written about the ruling in today's times. She's in broad agreement with you op.

I read Libby's article, and thought it was a good piece, on this subject.

There are two things going on here. First we have a serial sex offender, who can and should be prosecuted to the fullest extent of the law.

Second we have a "cultural" difference where all his victims suffer additionally from their communities attitudes. These backward cultural idioms should not be getting validation from secular courts.

Our opprobrium can be directed at the rapist primarily, but also to an extent anyone who then goes on to exacerbate the suffering of anyone victimised. Our compassion and empathy (as a wider society) should be unilaterally applied to any victims.

If we out of a sense of political correctness, fail to censure communities for acting so abominably to victims we are all making it worse.