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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Is feminism a left-wing thing?

133 replies

HirplesWithHaggis · 04/08/2015 03:07

Inspired by a comment (is it the done thing to name the poster? I assume not, but it would be giving credit for inspiration/thought-inducing rather than slagging her) on the AI thread, that she is not a left-wing feminist; fair enough, we all self-define.

But I had kind of always rather assumed it was/is, perhaps because I've been vaguely lefty and always feminist (apart from moments here when I've been told that I'm not a feminist because I'm not radfem) for about 40 years now. Am I totally out of date?

OP posts:
OTheHugeManatee · 06/08/2015 17:51

I am definitely not left-wing but definitely think of myself as a feminist.

I think certain types of feminism are easier if you're left-wing though. If you like your structural analyses and your ideologies and your false consciousnesses and your discourses and all that schtick you probably have a generally fairly lefty outlook generally.

TravellingToad · 06/08/2015 17:53

I'm very right wing politically and an extremely active feminist.

Hadn't thought before about politics really coming into it. People from all sides of the spectrum can believe in equality.

BuffytheReasonableFeminist · 06/08/2015 17:58

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AskBasil · 06/08/2015 18:04

Yes I don't really understand how you can explain inequality without structural analysis.

If structural factors don't exist, then there's no need to call for equality is there? Everyone can have equality just by deciding they're going to be equal and there will be no structural factors obstructing that decision.

caroldecker · 06/08/2015 18:10

Buffy there are many structural disadvantages, but the right wing remove structures and therefore remove the structural disadvantage.
How can building up a monolithic state structure remove structural disadvantage?
I give some examples below, but am interested in how a larger state helps remove structural inequalities for all.
If governments removed many barriers to entry for firms, many smaller firms could start which had women friendly policies, for example.
I had an idle thought about sexual equality in firms. At present, all firms must legally follow sexual equality, but many do not as the only enforcers are employees (who often need the job) through specific court cases, and the costs of non-compliance is small.
Imagine if the law was removed, but all companies were forced to publish thier equality policy.
Companies which chose to be sexist can be shamed/boycotted/ignored, whilst those who claim to be equal opportuities could be challenged through the court by campaigning organisations and fined (significant sums) for lying. IMO, this would make firms much more enthusiastic about getting it right.
Just one potential example where removing the role of the state could improve feminism.

SenecaFalls · 06/08/2015 18:12

As I understand it, the Democratic Party in the US is the "left wing" party but would be considered to be more closely equivalent to the Tory than the Labour Party here.

I think that this is true, in that the political center in the US is definitely to the right of the political center in the UK. Regarding feminism, however, I think it is very difficult for feminists in the US to be Republicans (and by definition right wing) because so many of the positions of the party and of individual Republicans are so avowedly anti-women and anti-feminist. That the Republican Party is the home of Christian fundamentalists (who believe that married women should "submit" to their husbands) says it all, really.

So in the US, most feminists are Democrats and on the left end of the political spectrum, although I think many would call themselves liberal rather than radical feminists, in the sense of the pre-"anything goes" liberal feminism that lightbulbon referenced in an earlier post: "20 years ago liberal feminism was easier to define as it was an umbrella term for campaigns to change laws, policies & practices."

But I have to say that, as an American, I am still trying to figure out how exactly the Tory Party is different from Labour. When I was a student in the UK many years ago, it was very obvious. Now, not so much.

YonicScrewdriver · 06/08/2015 18:14

Analysis comes from both sides of the politcal spectrum, surely?

BuffytheReasonableFeminist · 06/08/2015 18:15

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JustTheRightBullets · 06/08/2015 18:19

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YonicScrewdriver · 06/08/2015 18:22

Buffy, is every Tory voter right wing and every Labour voter left wing?

Because I don't think the majority of voters would identify as either!

JustTheRightBullets · 06/08/2015 18:23

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BuffytheReasonableFeminist · 06/08/2015 18:25

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caroldecker · 06/08/2015 18:29

justtheright Many PLC's are not held to account over issues as the shareholders don't care, the cost of non-compliance is low. Boycotts often do not work because of different information available to consumers and the fact thier policies are legal (such as amazon and tax-paying).
If they published a policy that they discriminated against women, I think a boycott would be successful.
If they published a policy of non-discrimination and the punishment for lying was a fine of say, 10% of turnover, shareholders would care due to cost of non-compliance.

BuffytheReasonableFeminist · 06/08/2015 18:29

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JustTheRightBullets · 06/08/2015 18:33

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BuffytheReasonableFeminist · 06/08/2015 18:38

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caroldecker · 06/08/2015 18:38

In my head, left-wing is statist, therefore anyone who is against a large state is right-wing (be they conservatives or anarchists). That is probably not helpful though.
My right wing is against large state but not being replaced by large corporations. Governments need to regulate to prevent corporations putting barriers up against competitors and the market will provide.
Need to understand your use of neoliberal individualism to reply more specifically.

BuffytheReasonableFeminist · 06/08/2015 18:44

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caroldecker · 06/08/2015 20:02

I agree with you about choices and freedom and believe this is best delivered by a govt which does very little except enforce the law and regulates very little except to prevent market abuse.

BuffytheReasonableFeminist · 06/08/2015 21:11

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caroldecker · 06/08/2015 21:30

Agree. But how would you build a left-wing state which provided choice?

Twasthecatthatdidit · 06/08/2015 21:33

Haven't read the thread but a lot of it is cultural. I grew up in the UK and live in Ireland - so in Ireland i would be considered right wing economically (welfare rates c high here, tax ovey progressive) but left wing socially.

Twasthecatthatdidit · 06/08/2015 21:33

Apologies for typos!

Twasthecatthatdidit · 06/08/2015 21:34

In Ireland lower paid pay v little taxes.

OTheHugeManatee · 07/08/2015 10:53

A few people on this thread have mentioned structural analysis type critiques of gender as something which obtains across both feminism and left-wing thinking and as such tends to mean someone is a lefty as well as a feminist. I think it was Buffy upthread who wondered what the equivalent right-wing analysis might be. I was thinking about that and don't think there is one, as such - because to me more right/libertarian thinking doesn't really go in for Grand Unifying Theories in the same way.

Possibly a digression, but IMO this is probably the most significant difference between the right and the left: the left generally has a vision for society - more just, more fair, more equal etc. It tends towards utopian ideals and has (often conflicting) grand theories about what's impeding utopia and what can be done to achieve it. Conversely, when I think of right-wing thinking I like and respect (and there is lots I don't) it tends to be pragmatic, to have a view of human nature that admits of a level of indelible ugliness as well as great beauty, and to be willing to tolerate a level of conflict and contradiction. Of course the best idealistic thinking may also have these traits, but utopian ideals by definition presume the perfectibility of human nature and as such are more likely to see pragmatism as corruption and human baseness of all kinds as evidence that More Needs To Be Done.

(I should also add that not all utopias are left-wing/progressive utopias, but when I think back over attempts to create utopias throughout history since, say, the French Revolution, the majority of them have been within the broad category of leftist/progressive.)

In that context, I think a lot of modern feminisms are - by virtue of imagining a utopia of gender equality - more likely to lean leftward than not. But as plenty of people have already said, this doesn't necessarily have to be the case. For example a conservative/pragmatic critique I sometimes hear of modern feminist tropes such as 'rape culture' is that while in theory it aims to foster equality and empmowerment, in practice it creates a climate of fear in which the women it hopes to protect come to see themselves as victims constantly under threat. Thus a feminist with a more pragmatic (rather than programmatic) stance might question its effectiveness at actually improving things for women, despite its positive intentions. Similarly, the modern culture of speech codes, 'calling out' and privilege-checking etc is well-intentioned and I absolutely grasp the theory behind it. Its logic is coherent, on its own terms. But personally I question its effectiveness, as a cultural practice, when it comes to actually improving things for any of the minority groups (including women) who come within its ambit.

All of this is to say, I suppose, that it would be a mistake IMO to look for feminist Grand Unifying Theories that have emerged specifically from a right-wing stance. I think this is because those elements of what I consider a right-wing stance that are compatible with feminism (as opposed, say, to right-wing social conservatism, which arguably isn't in any meaningful sense) are generally uncomfortable with Grand Unifying Theories and resistant to the authoritarianism that tends to follow upon trying to realise them in everyday life.