Is feminism a left-wing thing?

[HirplesWithHaggis]

Inspired by a comment (is it the done thing to name the poster? I assume not, but it would be giving credit for inspiration/thought-inducing rather than slagging her) on the AI thread, that she is not a left-wing feminist; fair enough, we all self-define.

But I had kind of always rather assumed it was/is, perhaps because I've been vaguely lefty and always feminist (apart from moments here when I've been told that I'm not a feminist because I'm not radfem) for about 40 years now. Am I totally out of date?

It's an interesting idea though and while I couldn't do it, I can understand the thought behind it.

For sure plenty of tory women have come out v strongly about grooming of girls, DV, other sex crime stuff. So kind of any women are (usually) better than any men, when it comes to women's rights. So given a choice between a tory man and a tory woman (or a lefty man and a lefty woman), then the feminist choice is to pick the woman. Makes sense. Exception being Nadine Dorries, obviously. But in general, yes it makes sense. And of course even with Nadine, the male Tory you got instead might well have similar views they're just not flagged so much coming from a man. Which again indicates I guess that it's more usual for women to have views that are on the side of women IYSWIM.

No, of course not. And I really resent the idea that women who are not lefties aren't 'proper' feminists, or only subscribe to choice feminism.

I agree with what askbasil said about the intersection of liberal/radical feminism with right/left UK politics.

Liberal feminism (as in seeking equality by lobbying for legal changes in the current system) is compatible with right wing neoliberal economic & social ideology & policies.

The theory goes that if women have equality of opportunity we will have equality of outcome.

There is a lack of acknowledgement from both lib fems & right wing women as to the social construction of 'women's issues'.

Marxist/socialist feminism is obviously left wing.

Radical feminism sits more comfortably with left wing politics in the UK. Both take a more structural approach to looking for solutions for discrimination/oppression women face.

There is also a commonality in language amongst these groups.

Afaicr both Andrea Dworkin and Beatrix Campbell have written books on right wing/ Tory women.

From what I remember the Campbell book talked about how 'Tory' women differed from 'feminist' women over the sahm/wohm divide. This was the 80s though and I think that has probably flipped now.

"There is a lack of acknowledgement from both lib fems & right wing women as to the social construction of 'women's issues'."

Disagree. I can look at the current set up of society, see how it disadvantages women and still think the most practical approach is to work to change it incrementally rather than trying to start again.

I understand this defines me as a lib fem, despite me being anti porn, pro Nordic model etc. I usually self define as feminist rather than lib fem as, again like many I suspect, my views are a mixture.

I agree with Yonic, although I do rather like AskBasil's playing field analogy.

I also identify with different aspects of different schools of feminism. I don't know whether other people would consider me lib/ rad/ just feminist. I don't really care what they think anyway.

I think of myself as leftwing, but that does not mean that I agree with all leftwing policies, and it certainly doesn't mean I am blind to the misogyny of leftwing men. It is not black and white - there are many many shades of grey in between.

I am also anti-porn, pro-Nordic model, Yonic, but I like to think that one day, we will live in a world where we won't need to think about Nordic models, because we will have educated our sons, all our sons and brought them up to respect women, so that both porn and visiting a prostitute will be anathema to them, completely unthinkable. Idealistic? Perhaps so, but then, the idea of flying through the sky was once considered an impossible dream.

I like that, Alex!

I specified that stance because sometimes libfem is equated to pro porn and I'm not!

I see your point, people do tend to associate the two. But, as I said, these things are rarely black and white!

20 years ago liberal feminism was easier to define as it was an umbrella term for campaigns to change laws, policies & practices.

The campaigns to criminalise demand, censor porn, close lap dancing clubs etc would all have come under this label.

However over the last decade 'lib fem' has becone used as a term to describe self defining feminists (eg women who are in favour of equality/equal pay & education etc) who are pro porn & pro sex industry/legalisation.

It's pretty confusing!

It gets even more confusing when rad fems find themselves 'on the same side' as right wing esp religious right wing women who want to restrict porn/sex industry, but for very different reasons.

I think this is where a lot of the misunderstanding of radical feminism comes from (usually by younger feminists who haven't read the classic 2nd wave texts) as they see (usually older) rad fems as being 'moralising', 'prudish', 'anti sex' etc without understanding that rad fems & the religious right are actually poles apart!

"I can look at the current set up of society, see how it disadvantages women and still think the most practical approach is to work to change it incrementally rather than trying to start again."

So can rad fems,can't they? You can have a practical approach and still have a structural analysis. Apart from separatists, I don't think many women who identify as radical, would say we have to just start again, because they know that's impossible. So they work for change battle by battle, like equal pay, rape law etc. - all those reforms that were brought about by radicals.

I agree that there's a difference between liberal feminists and lib fems and like so many terms, things are used interchangeably and confusingly and I sometimes find it all a bit angels on pinheads tbh. I also think the internet has confused things at the same time as opening things and making them more exciting, because a whole load of feminists with very different cultural assumptions are talking to each other and perhaps using terms differently to each other. And that also shows how much "feminism" as a movement, isn't necessarily leftwing. Except possibly radical feminism, I don't think I've ever come across a right wing feminist who identifies herself as radical. Although who knows, that might be a thing somewhere.

I just think as soon as a movement becomes a mass movement (which feminism did), it doesn't matter whether it started as a left or right wing movement, it can be influenced by and influence both left and right.

And now I'm wondering if left wing and right wing are very useful terms anymore.

I voted Conservative for the first time at this years GE.

I am a feminist.

I'm a feminist and my politics are liberal, right of centre.

I'm a feminist and I've voted both Lib Dem and Tory in my time.

I wouldn't vote for a woman if I didn't agree with her party's policies. But I would be more likely to vote for a woman than a man, all else being equal.

i disagree that voting for a female candidate is automatically a feminist act. If that candidate advocates the austerity agenda, for example, they are supporting cuts which systematically disadvantage women.

AskBasil, there's a saying on the Left that revolutionaries make the best reformists.

"And now I'm wondering if left wing and right wing are very useful terms anymore"

I would agree with this - most political commentary I hear on TV seems to be about "the battle for the middle ground" and I expect both Tory and labour high command would rather be called right of centre and left of centre than right wing or left wing.

"So can rad fems,can't they? You can have a practical approach and still have a structural analysis. "

Ok, but then what is libfem?

"So they work for change battle by battle, like equal pay, rape law etc. - all those reforms that were brought about by radicals."

Were they? I don't know enough to know one way or the other, but surely equal pay, for one, was a common goal of all feminists?

I think I shall continue to call myself just a feminist!

I'm never sure what "brand" my feminism is (lib, rad etc). Like politics, I focus on outcomes and tend to find labels troublesome.

"Ok, but then what is libfem? "

God now you're asking. I really have no idea. Labels are actually very useful (and essential) if they are applied in the same way to the same thing by everyone, but I agree with Sweetandfullofgrace that where they get troublesome, is when they mean something different to different people, which any label attached to feminism tends to and in fact the label feminist, without any other qualifier, also means different things to different people.

All those goals started off radical, until they became mainstream and suddenly everyone realised that they were sensible and they'd been in favour of them all along. Like every progressive measure, really. No major change, good or bad, has ever come out of the middle ground, has it? Hence that saying BoF referred to.

But that's using "radical" as "extreme" not "at the root"...

Shall we take this to theory? Or just be Reasonable ?

Surely socialism leads to a state run position with the lack of liberty of all within that strait-jacket. A right wing view (not necessarily espoused by the current govt), leads to a minimisation of state and large institutions by removing barriers to entry.
As such, the statist view is more likely to have a ruling class which hurts women than a small state which removes inherited benefits/positions.
Therefore feminists should be right wing.