I don't identify as a feminist - so why does this get on my nerves?

[SophieJenkins]

I was listening in the car to WH yesterday and they were doing their 'power list', first off discussing Kim Kardashian (have a vague idea who she is but not much) and then they started off the list and after about 1 or 2 interesting women, they announced Caitlyn Jenner.

I turned it off instantly as I couldn't listen. I don't know why but it just made me really angry.

I didn't want to start another thread about this as I realise from titles that people were getting sick of them, but cant get it out of my head and wondered if anyone could briefly help me figure out why it pissed me off SO much?

If we're not allowed to discuss this then I apologise and feel free to tell me. I haven't been reading any of the other threads about it which perhaps I should have done after all.

I think I feel like being female has been hijacked by someone and used to get publicity - when a lot of women are denied even the basic human rights that come with being a bloke.

And then to be put on a list of high achieving women for what? For wanting to be a woman?

I don't get it.

Kellie Maloney also homophobic don't forget which caused her immense confusion when someone pointed out that she is a lesbian now. IIRC I don't follow sleb stuff much but I seem to remember that happened on bir bro?

I think in terms of poster boys (girls), if I were transgender, I would be bloody well distancing myself from the likes of these weirdos.

Transgender people go through much worse than biological women in general (excluding certain parts of the world).

Imagine going through life desperately feeling like you don't belong in your own body, only to have people mock, ridicule and bully you and to totally dismiss your problem as a 'mental illness' when you finally address the problem.

I am a biological woman who was born a woman in the UK and I feel very lucky to be in that position. Transwomen are much less fortunate than I am.

Well actually I have always felt that I should have been a cat or a bird but guess what, I'm not! I am a human female and no amount of parading around dressed as a cat is going to change that!

Transgender people go through much worse than biological women in general

See I just don't accept that to be true

I'm not saying being trans is easy but no I don't think gender dysphoria is necessarily worse than (if you want to compare it to western women's issues rather than global issues such as underage marriage, fgm and rape as a tool of war) societal pressures to conform to feminine gender roles, body shaming women who don't meet beauty standards, discrimination in the workplace based on reproductive potential, sexual harassment and assault due to being female, poorer career opportunities due to being female, lower pay for the same work, I could go on.
Gender dysphoria is a condition that affects people psychologically and must be very difficult to live with. But so is post natal depression, anorexia, and body dysmorphia, all of which are either exclusively or mainly female conditions. There is nothing in my mind that makes gender dysphoria a worse situation than being female in any society.

I don't dispute that it is difficult to suffer with a sense of misplaced gender. I have no personal experience of it (I'm sure that is obvious) but can sympathise because I'm well aware of the social prejudices people encounter about all sorts of issues, including disability, mental illness, race and so on. (partly through personal experience, which I am certain everyone on here has some of, in some way)

This is far from the point, though, which is that gender is very much a social construct in any case while sex is a biological fact (in nearly everyone - though there are exceptions of course) so the question I suppose is how one defines gender, and how this affects our rights or privileges, or otherwise, in society.

I mean what women are allowed to do, what men are allowed to do, the difference being a woman makes to the way one is treated, and what it is about being a woman that some men identify with so strongly - ie, which part of the social construct they identify with, because you can't identify with having a woman's body, it being a fact of biology. You either have one or you don't.

I hope I am using those terms correctly, not being familiar with the wider argument that has been going on for a while.

For example I could say that I identify as a man because I really like carpentry and building things, prefer jeans to dresses, in fact my aversion to wearing 'feminine' clothes is pretty extreme IRL, I just cannot do it any more - no idea why - and that I like to wear men's shirts and footwear, which I do, and I run without trying to elegant, for example if my smallest child runs away, and I will go up scaffolding onto roofs, and not be afraid of spiders, and I ride motorcycles, and have done so for 15 years, and don't do skin care or nail varnish or anything like that.

All this is true. Putting it onto paper makes me sound like I am very 'male' in the traditional sense. I am actually a woman, and have never, ever considered myself otherwise. I hadn't even really thought about how that list might look until now.

There's no WAY I would want to be considered a man because of the things I do or enjoy or don't care about or do care about.

I know people, heterosexual people, and lesbians, loads of women who dress like I do and enjoy the stuff I do. MN is full of them too. We are still women.

So someone putting on a load of silky underwear and having some plastic surgery proves nothing to me, nothing whatsoever, except that this is their preferred appearance.

you can't just day that the term woman applies only to women living in the UK. not all of whom have a great time by any stretch of the imagination. it applies to half the population of the world you can't just ignore the billions of women and girls elsewhere and brush aside all that is being done to them because they were born with female genitals and then play competitive victims and say Oh trans women win do women have to do whatever they say.

it is true that trans people are at high risk of a host of problems including violence against them and mental health problems and there should be help and action obviously. but don't dismiss the absolute shit that is done to women and girls all over the world every day in order to make a case for it.

sorry on phone couple of spelling mistakes there hope it still makes sense!

Well, I was going to say that Kellie Maloney's life highlights the sheer hell that being transgender is. To the individual, their family, friends etc. I wondered if there would ever be a glimmer of understanding, rational discourse and maybe a less back and white view on here.

All of the above comments, e.g. whirlpools 2 posts above, regarding Kellie Maloney are the beginnings of interesting discussions. However here they always come across as absolute condemnation. I would wonder why, given his homophobia Frank still felt it imperative to go ahead with the change? I would wonder how his ex wife managed to forgive him his actions, why he sill has a decent relationship with his kids? I would wonder how she managed to forgive herself for the destructive actions he committed? I would wonder just how imperative the need to change must be for anyone to think/behave as Frank Maloney and still have sought to change? I would wonder how she will ever manage to make sense of her conflicting beliefs and emotions and be able to be happy?

I was also going to point out that it is a good job Frank/Kellie had more humane people in her life... you lot would just have consigned him/her to the bin, as some of you have, upthread.

The milk of human kindness runs ever thin, it seems.

"someone putting on a load of silky underwear and having some plastic surgery proves nothing to me, nothing whatsoever, except that this is their preferred appearance"

^ This.

Lou,

I don't know who you're talking about. I know literally nothing about him. Therefore calling him a weirdo was wrong, it was a gut reaction on my part in response to other people's description of someone I had never even seen a picture of let alone had any prior knowledge about their life.

I will say though that someones trans gender status to me neither helps nor hinders my judgment of their actions.

If someone acts like a dick, I will judge them on that whether they are transgender or not. If they are reasonable and pleasant person I will judge them likewise on that.

I don't think transgender issues can exonerate someone's vile behaviour in any situation.

Are some people here saying that when a person transitions, their past life is expunged? They should be able to start their new life with the slate wiped clean?

Oh I have now read up about former UKIP candidate Frank Maloney.

This person is a wanker whatever their gender.

Kellie Maloney also homophobic don't forget which caused her immense confusion when someone pointed out that she is a lesbian now

Kellie Maloney on her recent dating experiences: "I felt no attraction to the transgender women. One really stood out. She was big, 6ft, she looked like a very nice man in a dress!"

Ah yes Kellie Maloney who spent 60 years as a man and now claims she wants to be the first woman to represent boxing champions and prove women can get to the top in the sport. What a load of bullshit.

You know, when I was a young feminist in the early 70s, we used to get very over excited about gay men, and often forgot completely that sexuality has no connection at all with wisdom, moral probity or even niceness. I had many gay friends who I let get away with behaving like utter dicks because I so liked being their friend, and it was edgy and cool. Having friends who were HIV+ was even cooler. I certainly see a parallel between that and the way my dd talks about trans issues.

Reminds me of the way people speak about horrible old women - you must forgive her, she's old - well if she's become horrible recently maybe she can't help it, but if she's been a ghastly woman all her life the mere fact of having more years on the clock doth not a sweet little apple-cheeked old lady make. Likewise the mere fact of one's children having reproduced is not the magic wand that turns one into a lovely granny like the ones in fairy tales who don't try to kill or enslave their daughters.

I have known at least three transgender former colleagues and basically they were just people. Going through something that most of us don't, true, and some slack may be cut for that. But those who were nice people already stayed nice, and those who were a bit of a pain before they officially transitioned were a bit of a pain in different clothes afterwards.

Ehric, you make it sound such a trying thing to be a woman when in actual fact it's fucking brilliant.

There's two sides to being a woman, just like everything else.

Sophie that was much the point I was making. Any discussion about Maloney brings up much more pertinent questions about the issue. Mainly because of his male life and his behaviour then. Jenner is too LaLaLand, less mundane. So any discussion about him and his transition would be watered down by his celebrity...

Sadly the continued comments here simply go further to proving that MN RadFems give no quarter to any man who wishes to be a woman. The dismissiveness, mealy mouthed, nasty certainties voiced here really do help reinforce the opinion that today's feminist is really quite an unpleasant bigot.

As I have said else where, I am an old fashioned socio-cultural feminist - I believe in equality for all, the right to self determinism and, possibly most strongly, the need to be understanding of the position of others. Not to accept it, to bow down to it, to pander to it, but simply to acknowledge its existence and to wonder about the possible connotations it throws up. Basically, stop before pronouncing any judgement on a person before having walked a mile in their shoes.

They key to eradicating unwanted behavioural issues is to first observe them, then look for key causal factors and then to try to understand and therefore remove/ameliorate those causal factors. That seems not to apply to transgender men. Happily I don't see this attitude in my real life. But I am disheartened to read it here on MN, again and again!

"Sadly the continued comments here simply go further to proving that MN RadFems give no quarter to any man who wishes to be a woman"

I will give plenty of "quarter" to any man who wishes to become a woman. What I will not do is allow her to wipe the slate clean and ignore anything she did in her previous life. And I will not allow her to automatically become "the boss of me", and redefine my status as a woman without consultation.