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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

I don't identify as a feminist - so why does this get on my nerves?

232 replies

SophieJenkins · 02/07/2015 07:05

I was listening in the car to WH yesterday and they were doing their 'power list', first off discussing Kim Kardashian (have a vague idea who she is but not much) and then they started off the list and after about 1 or 2 interesting women, they announced Caitlyn Jenner.

I turned it off instantly as I couldn't listen. I don't know why but it just made me really angry.

I didn't want to start another thread about this as I realise from titles that people were getting sick of them, but cant get it out of my head and wondered if anyone could briefly help me figure out why it pissed me off SO much?

If we're not allowed to discuss this then I apologise and feel free to tell me. I haven't been reading any of the other threads about it which perhaps I should have done after all.

I think I feel like being female has been hijacked by someone and used to get publicity - when a lot of women are denied even the basic human rights that come with being a bloke.

And then to be put on a list of high achieving women for what? For wanting to be a woman?

I don't get it.

OP posts:
TheOriginalSteamingNit · 02/07/2015 09:09

trills they did make the point that it was 'powerful' women, not necessarily women one admires or likes...

Nonetheless, CJ has certainly shaped discussions recently about being a transwoman - it's hard to see what has been powerful in terms of women's lives.

oddfodd · 02/07/2015 09:16

But CJ has been an out transwoman for 5 minutes! She's had 60 odd years of fame and fortune entirely predicated on her (male) athletic skills - in a sport where women are not allowed to compete.

She has done nothing to further the lot of most 'ordinary' transwomen who cannot afford the surgery or the photoshoots, she's not helping, she's not a figurehead. Where's the influence? The only people who are going to be talking about her in 6/12 months time are the people who are already talking about the Kardashians - and I'd argue that they have very little influence in real terms.

EhricLovesTheBhrothers · 02/07/2015 09:17

Caitlin Jenner didn't achieve anything as a trans woman, all her achievements were as a man with all the male socialisation and privilege that goes with being a famous, talented male sports star.
That's why she doesn't belong on a list of powerful women.
Her only achievement as a trans woman is going from a fugly man to a vaguely fuckable (because she doesn't look like a 60 something woman and she has had ££££££££ of surgery) female.

NeedAScarfForMyGiraffe · 02/07/2015 09:27

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

NeedAScarfForMyGiraffe · 02/07/2015 09:28

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DollieDagger · 02/07/2015 10:11

OP, I had exactly the same reaction (to the extent of growling "aaarrggh FUCK OFF!" at the radio before I switched station).

Lousie Pennington (formerly of this parish) has written very pithily about Jenner's inclusion in the WH Power List here, and I hope she won't mind me reproducing her post below:

Caitlyn Jenner makes Woman’s Hour Power List

Shall we enumerate the ways in which Caitlyn Jenner has helped women:

1. Killed Kim Howe with his car.

2. Failed to financially support his children.

3. Stole his teenage step-daughter’s underwear to wear it around the house.

4. Reinforced neurosexism and heteronormativity with his stance on ‘female brains’ and ‘female souls’.

So, Bruce Jenner makes the list for doing sweet fuck all for women. Fabu-fucking-doodle. Next we’ll see Charlie Sheen on the list for not insulting, denigrating and threatening. one of the mother’s of his children for a period of 24 hours.

I made a formal complaint to the BBC here.

Caitlyn Jenner, a transgender woman who has killed a woman (Kim Howe) through dangerous driving, failed to financially support her children from previous relationships, and who admitted to stealing and wearing her step-daughter’s lingerie has been placed on Women’s Hour Power List. What precisely has Jenner done for women that negate killing a woman, financial child abuse, and stealing her stepdaughter’s lingerie (which in and of itself is deeply creepy)?

Could Woman’s Hour not find any women to place on this list that haven’t committed criminal offences like financial child abuse? Or, not killed anyone recently?

Jenner’s inclusion makes a mockery of the idea of a power list.

I have also sent this complaint to the BBC:

I wish to complain in the strongest possible terms about the inclusion of Caitlyn Jenner in the Women's Hour Power List.

This male-bodied individual has acheived nothing of note since their "transition", other than spending ten of thousands of dollars on plasic surgery in order to reify gender stereotypes which harm actual women and girls.

At present, this kind of politically orthodox double-think is unfortunately de rigeur in certain circles (young academics and students, mainly), but I am bitterly disappointed and actually deeply offended that the Woman's Hour editorial team (of whom I expect infinitely more in terms of analysis and critical thought) felt it was appropriate to include this person in their Power List, when they are neither female, nor an advocate for actual women and girls, nor influential beyond using their immense wealth and media presence to appear on the cover of Vanity Fair.

If Woman's Hour choose to repeat the Power List exercise in future, it would be reassuring to know that the women who are likely to feature on the list will a) have actually achieved something of note beyond tucking their genitals between their legs in order to pose in underwear on the cover of a magazine, and b) be actual females.

I am feeling pretty bleak about this today. Can women have nothing that is our own anymore, even bloody Woman's Hour?

TheOriginalSteamingNit · 02/07/2015 10:22

Here here, Dollie - excellent complaint!

Sootgremlin · 02/07/2015 10:25

I had forgotten about the death by dangerous driving - shows how 'powerful' the media hype is, a very well-timed distancing from 'Bruce'.

I didn't know that about the underwear stealing either. It is all a bit disturbing and depressing for women.

Thanks for posting that.

BertrandRussell · 02/07/2015 10:28

Wow.

That's me off the fence on this one- I didn't know most of that.

It does sometimes seem that trans issues are a sort of Trojan Horse being wheeled up to the gates of Feminism....

TheOriginalSteamingNit · 02/07/2015 10:31

They're talking about the power list on WH now..

SophieJenkins · 02/07/2015 10:37

Thank you for linking, Yonic, I've just got back on here.

Dollie I agree 100% with what you have posted. I didn't know about any of the things this asshole person has done either. Stealing his child's underwear? Seriously?

FFS!!!! I did actually say exactly the same as you before turning off the radio; despite never watching a programme about this guy or reading about him, I am still sick to the back teeth of him.

I wonder how many others turned off at precisely that moment?

OP posts:
Sootgremlin · 02/07/2015 10:38

Did anyone see Alice Eve's Instagram comments about Jenner a couple of months ago, she was deeply critical of the lauding of him and addressed some of these issues. She was roundly turned on and had to delete, apologise and retract.

SophieJenkins · 02/07/2015 10:40

Needascarf I do appreciate the difficulties faced by people with those issues.
I really do and am all for the promotion of a fluid sexual identity as normal if it helps confused youngsters - that's not the issue here though I don't think.

I felt totally betrayed by WH on this. Not that I like Jenni anyway, I never have and remember when she took over back in the 90s and my heart sinking and hoping she wouldn't last long.

OP posts:
BertrandRussell · 02/07/2015 10:43

I don't think you can blame Jenni Murray..........

SophieJenkins · 02/07/2015 10:49

Ah, perhaps not Grin

OP posts:
BertrandRussell · 02/07/2015 10:53

Why don,t you like Jenni?
I realise she keeps chiwahwahs or however you spell them which is pretty unforgivable...........

Anniegetyourgun · 02/07/2015 10:55

Sounds like, the Jenner issue aside, the whole list was about being famous/high profile rather than being important in any sense at all. Being talked about does not = influential. So it's not what these women - or transwomen - have done, it's about whether the papers choose to write about them. And the papers are owned by... wait for it...

Sootgremlin · 02/07/2015 10:56

I've seen that Sarah Vine was on the judging panel so not entirely surprised at the provocative choice, she is not a great supporter of women, I don't find. Pays lip service to feminism whilst promoting damaging views and stereotypes.

Anniegetyourgun · 02/07/2015 10:56

Chihuahuas, Bertrand. Well, somebody has to.

TheOriginalSteamingNit · 02/07/2015 10:57

Sarah Vile is positively antipathetic to feminism - she thinks the feminist harpies should be ashamed of themselves re. Tim Hunt etc.

SophieJenkins · 02/07/2015 11:36

I'm not sure why I don't like her. I think I don't like her voice, immediately, but it is more than that - I don't like her attitude.

Not sure why. She seems quite rude sometimes. And dismissive.

Some people you just don't like I suppose.

OP posts:
Lottapianos · 02/07/2015 11:38

Dollie, that is pretty unpleasant and nasty stuff. I had no idea about any of Bruce / Caitlyn Jenner's background other than his athletic success. Thanks for sharing

slug · 02/07/2015 11:51

And then to be put on a list of high achieving women for what?

As a man, Bruce Jenner was an olympic gold medal winner, a racing car driver and a successful businessman. As a woman, Caitlyn Jenner's only achievement that I can see so far is to be photographed by Annie Liebowitz.

And there you have it...

caroldecker · 02/07/2015 12:00

From the website:
The aim of this year’s list was to identify a range of women who have an exceptionally large impact on our lives, not just because of their job title but because of their personal ability to influence others.

If we accept CJ as a woman, then there has been a huge amount of influence through the media - whether or not she did it alone, or even did much anyway.

It is sometime useful to see who is influencing things, even if in a negative fashion.

Bakeoffcake · 02/07/2015 12:01

The inclusion on the list annoyed me too. She has only been a woman for weeks yet beats every other woman on the planetHmm

As an aside I don't think much of Jenny either. I always feel she never listens to people's answers, she just gets in with her list of questions.

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