I don't identify as a feminist - so why does this get on my nerves?

[SophieJenkins]

I was listening in the car to WH yesterday and they were doing their 'power list', first off discussing Kim Kardashian (have a vague idea who she is but not much) and then they started off the list and after about 1 or 2 interesting women, they announced Caitlyn Jenner.

I turned it off instantly as I couldn't listen. I don't know why but it just made me really angry.

I didn't want to start another thread about this as I realise from titles that people were getting sick of them, but cant get it out of my head and wondered if anyone could briefly help me figure out why it pissed me off SO much?

If we're not allowed to discuss this then I apologise and feel free to tell me. I haven't been reading any of the other threads about it which perhaps I should have done after all.

I think I feel like being female has been hijacked by someone and used to get publicity - when a lot of women are denied even the basic human rights that come with being a bloke.

And then to be put on a list of high achieving women for what? For wanting to be a woman?

I don't get it.

Gender critical is exactly what you have described Sophie - understanding that gender roles are socially constructed and not innate. Trans activist theory holds that gender is an innate quality that can exist in contrast to biological sex and in fact supersedes biological sex as an identifying factor. So the woman with a penis/not all women have vaginas dogma.
A gender critical person may say that a trans woman is a biological male who chooses to adopt socially constructed gender roles assigned to women, but that is construed as hate speech in some circles.

Greer was very wrong to say that in the 70s

I don't think Greer has ever got the coverage that the kardashians have, and I'm not sure how influential she was compared to many others.

Did she say that? Fucking hell that's awful. I assume she has retracted that since? What a stupid thing to say.

Purdie you can't call them women and trans women because that is not what they want and various countries have laws as well to say they are women. It is in many circles considered offensive to say trans rather than just women, or to suggest that they didn't grow up as girls, (if they believe they have always been female then they literally have been), for feminists this feels like wiping the lived experience of females everywhere out entirely but hey ho.

What's wrong with Willy? It's a perfectly normal term that millions of people in the uk use.

So we can be told that our vaginas (which as we all know are fairly complex functioning organs) are now to be known as a "front hole" ie nothing more than a void ffs with all function gone except that it can accommodate things, and for gods sake men refer to us as holes enough anyway don't they? And yet the thing to make a fuss about is the use of the word Willy?

Just horrible horrible stuff.

Germaine Greer said that in the 70s. She was wrong.

But it is important to remember that she said it in the context of a society in which it was widely believe that women could not be raped if they kept their legs closed or wore trousers, that wearing a short skirt meant that a woman was asking to be raped and that women could not be raped by their husbands. And that a woman could not have been raped if she did not struggle, or if her vagina produce any lubrication.

Anyway. Apologies for the derailing- but it needed to be said.

And I'm not sure about this, but I suspect that psychosexual experts at the time would have agreed with her.

So, I complained to the BBC about Jenner being included on the 'Power List' and have received this response:

Dear Bore

Thanks for contacting us regarding Radio 4’s ‘Woman’s Hour’ on 1 July.

We note you were unhappy that Caitlyn Jenner featured on the Woman's Hour Power List 2015.

This list featured women involved in a wide range of areas, from politics and fashion to journalism and entertainment. As stated on the Woman’s Hour website, “The aim of this year’s list was to identify a range of women who have an exceptionally large impact on our lives, not just because of their job title but because of their personal ability to influence others.”

www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/articles/1wsc6xjTph1CvN5jWzLtfzT/womans-hour-2015-power-list-influencers
The list was decided upon by a panel of judges, headed up by journalist and broadcaster Emma Barnett and including human rights lawyer Helena Kennedy QC and Radio 1 DJ Gemma Cairney. They looked at well-known women's personal ability to influence others. You can read more about the judges here:

www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/articles/1YmbsbyVkMDTXgjwgn9P4Ff/the-womans-hour-2015-power-list-influencers
As the following BBC News article on Caitlyn Jenner’s inclusion notes:

“Speaking about Jenner's inclusion in this year's top 10, Daily Mail columnist and judge Sarah Vine acknowledged it was controversial, for several reasons.

"Initially... many of us felt that Kim Kardashian would have to appear somewhere - not because any of us felt any particular admiration for the woman, but simply because her influence on millions of women worldwide is undeniable.

"But then the Caitlyn Jenner story broke and I in particular felt that she trumped all others in the celebrity stakes."

She added: "I understand why someone like Jenner might make people feel uncomfortable; but she is a human being like the rest of us and should not be denied the same rights - or indeed respect - as those who live more conventional lives.

"As to her influence, it can only be to the good if a wider audience can learn to understand her experience."”

Woman's Hour editor Alice Feinstein also gave her thoughts on the list, adding:

“"The way power operates in today's global, interconnected society is not straightforward - brokers of hard power like prime ministers, presidents and CEOs are no longer calling all the shots.

"What I wanted to examine in this year's list of influencers is how women are operating outside traditional power structures to get things done."”

www.bbc.co.uk/news/entertainment-arts-33344317
We hope this is helpful in explaining the focus of this list, and giving more insight into the judges’ decisions, but we appreciate that you may continue to disagree with Caitlyn Jenner’s inclusion and we appreciate your feedback.

Please know complaints are sent to programme makers and senior management every morning and we’ve included your points in our overnight reports. These reports are among the most widely read sources of feedback in the BBC ensuring that complaints are seen quickly by the right people.

Kind regards

Stuart Webb

BBC Complaints

Am thinking of including in my response the points Miranda Yardley (referred to upthread) makes.

Ugh. Looks like including Jenner got them out of including Kim Kardashian, who their snobbery didn't want them to include. Say what you like about Kim, like Katie Price before her, she's made a lot of money from her personal "brand" and has a fair deal of longevity as a celeb.

Plus she's never caused anyone's death, of course.

Yes Yonic, KK would have been an entirely appropriate inclusion, whatever one thinks of her.

she is a human being like the rest of us and should not be denied the same rights

And do we all, of whatever sex and regardless of what we have or haven't done for, or to, women, deserve a place on the Woman's Hour Power List?

I hate that email. 'We were thinking about women, and then a man wore a dress and we felt that that 'trumped' all the rest' .

innocent not just you, it does sound very rude and makes it sound like they never wanted KK on that list.

I haven't listened to much WH in the last month or so but from the show notes there had been lots of discussion about including KK.

I don't see what Jenner has done that is influential, transitioning in amongst all the publicity wasn't done with the aim of highlighting trans issues or for selfless reasons, it was done for personal reasons and from what I've read, the timing was carefully planned, not that that is wrong, Jenner isn't unusual in doing what is best for them for their own happiness, which is why I don't understand the inclusion in WH list, when many other women in the media are slated for living their lives to suit themselves and making choices that is best for them, Kim Kardashian included.

Jeez, I bet they're kicking themselves that they made the list before Rihanna made her 'influential' video now!

"the woman" is very dehumanising. And the whole sentence is very dismissive of her, who as someone upthread has said, has longevity. Also don't you think there is something slightly creepy in replacing her with her father on the list?

Her father in her scanties.

Does anyone else read that as the most revolting piece of class prejudice? In my mind it comes out with the following gloss: "We really felt we had to throw some sort of sop to the proles, much as it pained us to do so, because we're members of the intelligensia, doncher know, and so above all that sort of thing, and furthermore, we really don't like that sort of woman. But then Caitlyn Jenner conveniently arrived on the scene, and we were able to appeal to the proles and tick the 'more liberal than thou' box all at the same time, job done! Thank god we managed to dodge a bullet there."

Agree entirely Lurcio - it's really sneery.

That's made me even crosser than I was. Good work WH

Oh god really Apocalypse? I missed that. That is beyond fucking creepy.

And yy Lurcio.

many of us felt that Kim Kardashian would have to appear somewhere - not because any of us felt any particular admiration for the woman

"the woman" should be replaced with "Ms Kardashian" in a formal letter. Using the title avoids an odd repetition of her name in full (which is why titles are actually useful). "Her" is also rude. Well the whole sentence is actually rude but it could at least have followed a proper format.

Oh god really Apocalypse? I missed that. That is beyond fucking creepy.

Apparently, yeah. He'd borrow (she probably has all new as of this revelation) Kim's unders to better appreciate his feminine side.

I can't decide whether it's more scummy or creepy?

He's not Kim's father, he's her step-father, even more creepily