Men who feel the need to police what women say

[ShadowsCollideCantLogInToMN]

Obviously I know that not all men do this, but I encountered it tonight, and I'm extremely pisssed off.

So I posted a jokey update on FB yesterday about encountering a spider in the house that was 'as big and hairy as the fucking cat'. Not an earth shattering, important post, just an observation that was admittedly rather hyperbolic .

Had a few responses from people who had found similar big beasts lurking. Then tonight had a phonecall from my Mum, asking if I'd seen a particular response from a male relative. I hadn't, as I hadn't been on FB all day. It was a very scolding, unpleasant post, telling me that I ought to 'wash my mouth out'. This person definitely wouldn't speak the same way to a man. His son frequently posts ranty, sweary posts, and nothing is ever said by the person in question. He felt the need to publicly smack me down, because I'm a woman.

What's infuriating me even more is that my Dad's response to this, my usually lovely, liberal, supporter of women Dad, was that I should just delete the post. Yes, because as a woman, it's my job to erase the evidence of this man's small minded misogyny. I ought to protect him from embarassment.

Sorry, I'm ranting and not really asking a question. I'm just so annoyed at my relative for taking it upon himself to publicly scold me. I'm even more annoyed at my Dad for telling me to quietly remove the post. Why? To protect this relative? To save my Dad from the embarassment of being associated with such a person? I'd have expected him to defend me.

I'm pissed off, disappointed, and freshly aware of how us women are supposed to merrily take instruction from men, and say nothing.

I think, Cailindana what you said about the response someone should or shouldn't expect, is bang on. People can say what they like, even if it's awful. For me the issue is more about the reaction. For most people, if you try to say something nice and it goes wrong, you feel rotten and apologise. Whereas if you shout 'nice tits' at me, get no response and then launch a barrage of abuse, then not only was your original remark gross and banal but it becomes instantly clear to me that it wasn't said out of a desire to compliment, but a desire to control, or to boost your own ego.

Personally I think we get into shady ground once we start saying that in some situations it's perfectly fine for men to pass comment on women they don't know. Because surely, as Yops said, it is usually said because they're a woman, and because women's appearance is classed as public property. It's assumed, in some way, that it is there for others. Which all of the 'look good for you!' rhetoric doesn't seem to be altering.

I think what we can say, and what seems obvious to me, is about manners. A 'courtly' remark by an aged gent in the supermarket, it's still demeaning if you think about it, I mean 'a beautiful woman is never in the way'? C'mon! But, on the other hand it's also about context and I think everyone likes a compliment - even if it's not entirely 'right on' - if it's genuinely about you, not about them. And in terms of response - you can ignore it if you like and presumably the elderly gent isn't going to then start shouting nonsense. If he does then that's another thing. I suppose you could get into the ins and outs of it with a pensioner at sainsbos, but that's not something I tend to have an appetite for myself.

Anyway, I guess I mean that I think it's about purpose, and manners, and much like a lot of bad male behaviour that gets presented as 'confusing' by defenders of it, I really don't think it's difficult to navigate in real life, it's just that people pretend it is.

To go back to the OP, god knows what the uncles purpose was, but what he said was definitely bad manners. The OPs dad though - I think he was probably coming from a good place. He can still be wrong, or wrongish, like supermarket gent, but it doesn't mean he's evil. And cos he's your dad, not a random gent, you could probably discuss it with him rather than kicking him out of the feminist club.

Oh, and Lass I agree it is totally fine and even encouraged for a woman to compliment a woman she doesn't know. But there is a very strong convention around it, and that is that it is always about the clothes, or the hair, or makeup, or handbag.... we all do it, it's second nature to me and I expect most women. It can never ever be about anything that's physically part of the woman - that's for friends only. Which is probably the difference really - for men, it's always physical. I mean, has anyone ever had 'LOVE YOUR SHOES' shouted at them from a car? And has anyone ever had a woman on the tube tell them they thought their thighs were amazing and ask them how they got them?

I would publicly and politely admonish him in front of all your friends and family on Facebook for telling you off and trying to police your behaviour.

And has anyone ever had a woman on the tube tell them they thought their thighs were amazing and ask them how they got them?

No but I had that at the gym. A lo-ong time ago, I should add.

"Well, thanks for that contribution, uncle ....
If you find my posts on Facebook a bit sweary then perhaps it's best to unfollow me on here. Cheers!"

Agree re compliments. Also I'd also observe that it feels rather different if compliments, even on attire, come from a man rather than a woman, as there's a worry about undertones of being put in ones (decorative) place.

"Anyway, I guess I mean that I think it's about purpose, and manners, and much like a lot of bad male behaviour that gets presented as 'confusing' by defenders of it, I really don't think it's difficult to navigate in real life, it's just that people pretend it is."

You hit on a very important point and it's something I've come across numerous times, particularly in relation to rape. Some people seem to present men as bumbling idiots who can't see or hear anything around them and so crash around hopelessly committing social offence after social offence because they can't possibly know what's going on or what effect they're having on other people. I've seen it said multiple times that a man who is so close to a woman that parts of his body are inside her could feasibly not be aware that she isn't aroused or enjoying the interaction. And this is said in all seriousness, as if men genuinely cannot see or read a facial expression, have no way of picking up any physical cues, can't ask a question, or do anything to gain any information about the social situation they're in. If that were true and men in general were likely at any moment to shout obscenities or rape someone then it would be safe to say they should be closely supervised at all times. In actual fact, men are quite capable of reading situations and understanding when they're actions are unwanted, they just don't care or they don't feel women have any right to reject their comments/advances/penis.

Cailin yes- and rape is the big one, or at least 'consent' appears to be. But it happens all the time. 'Well if it's sometimes ok to compliment a woman then how on earth am I supposed to know what to do!' er, maybe because you've got a minimal awareness of social interaction, buddy.

It's a bit like the women complimenting outfits thing. If I think about it, I know that it would maybe be ok for me to compliment a woman's body at the gym, because that's a setting that's about bodies - though there would be other judgements I would make at the time before actually doing it. Ditto, the occasionally quite personal remarks one can make or receive to women in a pub toilet at a certain point in the evening. I can, if I think it through, think of the 'correct' way to do things in many different situations, some of which are quite different from the 'correct' way to do things in other situations. None of this is knowledge I have to consciously consider. And I do occasionally get it wrong, but when I do it quickly becomes clear to me, and I apologise and if needed withdraw from a course of action.

The only explanations I can find for men not being able to make these judgements, in relation to women, is that they are lying and do know but don't care, or that they have somehow never learned, perhaps because throughout their lives it has never been presented as vitally important that they do. I don't know which would be worse tbh.

It bothers me a lot, because eg sainsbos gent, we end up tarring him with the same brush as 'nice tits' lout, when they're really not the same at all. But because of this bullshit 'we're men and we don't understand anything' position, women start having to make blanket rules so it's nice and simple. Which is bad for everyone.

Callin you know perfectly well that's not what I meant. But it saddens me that well intended remarks by women or men have to be treated as demeaning or insulting Can't you tell the difference between the 2?

I'd post "do your own kids know you're such a puritan, or did they delete you for sanctimonious lectures!?"

I'd be annoyed too, but don't defend yourself.

Tell him how you feel and block the twat.
If he can't accept you, best not upset him.

I'm glad you answered back and didn't delete the post. You're angry, you have been treated unfairly because you're a woman, and IMO it's important that you don't just know that in yourself and rant to us (though you should do that too!) but that you let the person concerned know too. I think sexism is so ingrained it does have to be spelt out to people. This man has slapped you down for swearing, but he probably doesn't even question why he's so sure you shouldn't, when it's OK for his own son. He needs to be told. And re your dad, the line you've taken may help him to have a rethink and see where you're coming from.

Sexism like this happens all the time, every day and that's how it does its work. We have to answer back just as much, in just as many millions of small everyday ways.

Thanks, everyone. There are loads of posts here that I will respond to when I get a chance, and thank you all for replying.

However, CatOf, your post struck a chord with me. I'm so very, very cross. You are so right re 'Sexism like this happens all the time, every day'. I used to be an, I suppose, moderate feminist. Now I'm pissed off, becoming more furious and more motivated to become radical, and unwilling to be belittled by big, bullying men.