Men who feel the need to police what women say

[ShadowsCollideCantLogInToMN]

Obviously I know that not all men do this, but I encountered it tonight, and I'm extremely pisssed off.

So I posted a jokey update on FB yesterday about encountering a spider in the house that was 'as big and hairy as the fucking cat'. Not an earth shattering, important post, just an observation that was admittedly rather hyperbolic .

Had a few responses from people who had found similar big beasts lurking. Then tonight had a phonecall from my Mum, asking if I'd seen a particular response from a male relative. I hadn't, as I hadn't been on FB all day. It was a very scolding, unpleasant post, telling me that I ought to 'wash my mouth out'. This person definitely wouldn't speak the same way to a man. His son frequently posts ranty, sweary posts, and nothing is ever said by the person in question. He felt the need to publicly smack me down, because I'm a woman.

What's infuriating me even more is that my Dad's response to this, my usually lovely, liberal, supporter of women Dad, was that I should just delete the post. Yes, because as a woman, it's my job to erase the evidence of this man's small minded misogyny. I ought to protect him from embarassment.

Sorry, I'm ranting and not really asking a question. I'm just so annoyed at my relative for taking it upon himself to publicly scold me. I'm even more annoyed at my Dad for telling me to quietly remove the post. Why? To protect this relative? To save my Dad from the embarassment of being associated with such a person? I'd have expected him to defend me.

I'm pissed off, disappointed, and freshly aware of how us women are supposed to merrily take instruction from men, and say nothing.

Some interesting replies here, so thanks to you all.

TheBlackRider 'I know how horrible it is when men you thought were allies suddenly demonstrate that they're not totally onside at all.' Yes, that's exactly how I'm feeling. My Dad is on my side, unless it's a case of upsetting the family applecart, and then I should just be fine with being openly scolded by a 'superior' family male. Anything to avoid upsetting 'the family'.

NoTechnological, I don't doubt that it's often easier to ignore the family than try to change them. It's an approach I could have taken, except I've been raised to not do that, by both my Mum and Dad. I've been raised to be outspoken, and challenge bigoted, narrow minded thinking when I observe it. Perhaps my Dad was brought up in a certain environment, knowing that you just can't win sometimes. However, I'd prefer to challenge, rather than accept defeat. I'd hate to adopt the mindset that I can't win, so why speak out at all.

shaska, I think that you have hit the nail on the head here. 'Like you said he may be seeing it as a respect for elders thing, or just a keeping the peace thing, rather than a submitting to men thing. And whether or not he's right about that, it's a bit of a 'failure without intent'. I very much think that this could be the case. I'm not sure that I accept it, though. One can respect one's elders without blindingly condoning everything they say. Also, is keeping the peace the correct thing to do, when keeping the peace involves letting misogynists to speak freely and harshly to their younger female relatives, with no response?

Yops, maybe we do cut older people slack. Perhaps this is alien to me, given that my maternal Grandparents never had to be convinced to be open minded with regards to children born outside marriage, couples living together outside marriage, gay marriage and a woman's right to abortion. Perhaps I have been spoiled re my exposure to open minded octogenarians .

Annie, no, not a conspiracy. More, the realisation that my Dad put his 'standing' in the family above supporting his daughter, as to have openly spoken out for me may have made some of the older extended family members cross. I'm still disappointed that my Dad prioritised not embarrassing a bigoted, mean extended family member over defending one of his children.

'Sorry Uncle, I have been picking up too many bad words from your sons account. I will try to be be more ladylike in the future and trust your endeavours to craft your son into a proper gentleman will gain pace.'

I may be missing the point spectacularly but big spiders, at this time of year?

Yes, Lumpy, it's because they are all gravid with billions of ickle baby spiders.
Mwhahahahhaha.

That's all wrong! I have big spiders pencilled in from late August until October, that's it! They don't get May.

Unfortunately I have casual sexism penciled in for every month of the year.

Yops, cutting an older person some slack for saying something a bit inappropriate but basically nice and well-meaning is an entire world away for cutting a person slack for being a nasty shithead directly to you all over facebook, or for defending said nasty bastard. Compliments are absolutely not the same thing as a telling off and you know that.

Just to be clear, I didn't mean you should follow your dads suggestion of letting it go. More that I didn't feel you should rule your dad out of supporting feminism based on whag he said. I mean, it could be a good discussion to have with him and a chance for him to understand where you're coming from with it, as yeah he maybe didn't see it that way- as I think a lot of men don't. And I don't entirely blame them for that, given the world we all live in.

*what he said. What is whag, phone?

Cailin, I understood that, compliment or not, passing an unsolicited comment on a woman's appearance was verboten. She isn't there to 'brighten up his day' or whatever else is spouted. Even if he means well, it shouldn't be done. It is said because the recipient is a woman, just as in the OP, it was written because she was a woman. The gender is not incidental, it is the factor that leads to the comment. Surely that is why it is wrong.

Or should I compliment women randomly if they are pleasing to my eye? Just because I want to?

Yops you are clearly an intelligent person so I don't know why you come on these threads pretending to not understand the most basic of things. Do you genuinely want me to explain this to you? I will if you do, on the off chance you really don't get it.

I am not being obtuse. I am surprised, if I am honest, that you disagree. The discussion in question was an old chap being helped in a supermarket, from memory. A woman helped him. He complimented her on her appearance. He could have said, 'you are kind/thoughtful/considerate' etc etc. He chose to mention appearance, which from my understanding, is not considered cricket within feminism.

Now you are telling me that, because he is being nice, it's okay? Is that what you are saying - just so we are clear here.

Yops, your original post was this:
"On the issue of your dad, I think are being a bit harsh on him. There is another discussion on FWR about 'Hot Feminism', and the subject of unsolicited male compliments came up. Two FWR posters (as opposed to trolls) were discussing how an old chap in his 70's had made a comment about said poster's attractiveness. He was forgiven on account of his age, and the incident was described as 'sweet'. By a feminist.

My point is that we cut old people all sorts of slack, all of the time, in all sorts of situations, based purely on their age/generation. Doing this has not changed your dad, or how he fundamentally views the world. Not everything is part of a patriarchal conspiracy."

Your implication was, that because one feminist found an old man who complimented her "sweet" then the woman in the current thread should go easy and cut her dad some slack purely due to his age. This is a strange and nonsensical assertion for a few reasons:

1. An old man complimenting a woman is not comparable to someone's dad letting her down by not defending her against a rude and aggressive relative and I can't see how you make the connection between them simply because both men are older.
2. Feminists are not bound by a particular set of rules. It is not the case that every single man who compliments a woman in public is at all times to be hated and vilified. In fact, in a strange turn of events, feminists believe that it is up to the woman herself to state how she feels about an interaction and if she feels it's "sweet" then great, she's had a nice interaction with a nice person. A man, of any age, making a genuinely nice statement in a friendly manner is a world away from a man, of any age, shouting at a woman on the street. For context for others reading, the poster in question was at the supermarket and reached for something at the same time as a man in his 70s. She opened a conversation with him by saying "Oh sorry I'm in the way" and he replied "a good looking woman is never in the way." It was a cheesy comment but any normal person can see that it was a kind reply to a kind opening comment. It was not a man shouting "nice tits" on the street.
3. Just because this particular poster found this interaction sweet doesn't mean all women would find it sweet. Because, strangely enough, we are individuals. So one woman finding this particular interaction sweet does not mean as you say that you can now "compliment women randomly if they are pleasing to my eye Just because I want to? How you would conclude that is beyond me. Randomly complimenting women is not the same as giving a cheesy but sweet reply to someone being polite to you. Plus, one woman thinking it's ok doesn't mean all women in the world think it's ok. But those things should be obvious to you, and I'm wondering why they're not?

Case in point - TBR wouldn't like that comment, even though the other poster did. It is up to individual women to decide how they feel about situations like that. It is not up to men to just throw out compliments and assume women will be ok with it - they might be, they might not, because hey they are humans with feelings, not things to be commented on because they are "pleasing to your eye."

Generally a good rule of thumb for you Yops would be "would I do this to a man?" If not, think why not and if it's because a man would be annoyed, embarrassed, find you weird, whatever, then think about why a woman wouldn't also be annoyed embarrassed, find you weird. We are humans. Treat us the same as you would treat men.

The OP is free to think how she wants. So are you, Cailin. So is the compliment receiver in the other thread. And what you are saying is, judge every case on it's merits. Fine. There are no hard and fast rules. Human interaction is multi-faceted, complex and nuanced.

So, next time someone starts a new thread about 'why do men do X!?', I'll point them in here. Because maybe he was just being nice. Maybe the last person he did 'X' to or with liked it. Maybe he was brought up that way. Maybe a particular OP is being too sensitive. I'd get given short shrift though, just you watch.

Maybe, in this case, the shouty uncle has a personal belief system that abhors swearing. Maybe his son receives personal blocking, rather than FB admonishments. Maybe the shouty uncle doesn't see the OP often enough to tell her to her face, so FB was the convenient medium. Maybe he treats all sweary people with distain. The OP says the uncle wouldn't speak to a man like that, and put her down because she is a woman. But I'd say that is a guess - maybe an informed one - unless she is constantly with him.

She is absolutely entitled to feel pissed off. I'd tell him to grow up and not be such a hypocrite. And I'd speak quietly to my dad about why his reaction was upsetting. But I stand by my original point - we cut old people slack because of their age. Remember Katherine Tate's swear, racist granny? That was the joke. A caricature, yes, but one that reflects attitudes to old folks in our society.

Cross posted, cailin. But you seem to be saying exactly what I said now. Would the old boy have said 'you look attractive' to a man? Unlikely. So now I am confused.

Men shouldn't walk round deciding whether a woman might or might not like them to comment on their appearance. A better rule of thumb would be 'just keep your mouth shut'. At the very least, thanks for behaviour makes more sense than comments on appearance, no?

Yes the rule of thumb is to keep your mouth shut because you don't know how someone will react. If you compliment a woman she might smile and be delighted or she might be offended. Either response is entirely valid because she's a human being who has every right to feel any way she feels about her interactions with other people. So if you do make comments to a woman you don't know how she's going to respond. Either deal with that and put up with a possible negative reaction, or just keep your mouth shut.

-I don't want unsolicited compliments
I do.
I give unsolicited compliments too,to people I don't know. If someone has obviously gone out of their way to achieve a certain look I assume they are happy for it to be noticed.

And I don't like swearing just for the sake of it (although I get that it is women swearing which is being objected to not just random swearing )

That's fair enough Lass, as long as you don't expect everyone else to feel the same way and as long as you're ok with some people not responding to your compliments.

I think it's fairly safe to assume a Dita von Teese lookalike in 50s vintage or a Goth princess with elaborate designs painted on her face looking as if she has walked out of graphic novel are going to throw a strop. Usually will result in a brief conversation about their look.

It has never occurred to me to be offended when a stranger does the same to me.

"are not going to "

So are you ok with men shouting "nice tits" on the street?

OP I hope that next time you see a sweary post by this man's son that he has commented on but not mentioned the swearing, that you point out his double standards by not asking his son to wash his mouth out!

Better still, OP - get your dad to bollock sweary son on FB, and then you type underneath in great big fuck-off letters - HOWDA YA LIKE THEM APPLES!?!