Butch women in female spaces

[TCD4]

Hi everyone, i've been lurking on this board for a while but this is my first post, so apologies if it is a stupid question.

I was just wondering how people feel about the issue of butch women / whether this is a feminist issue. I have read threads on here in which some posters argue that trans women shouldn't have access to some women's spaces etc.

I am a masculine looking woman, I don't exactly set out to be but I have short hair, feel comfortable in jeans and shirts, and I do often get mistaken for a man. This doesn't bother me as I choose to present myself in quite an androgynous way, although it is quite annoying that people feel completely unable to have a conversation without first establishing whether I am male or female.

However I do feel uncomfortable in women's bathrooms. I know that if a woman mistook me for a man they could feel threatened by my being there, which I don't want. I find myself taking off jumpers before going to the loo to try and emphasize the fact I have breasts, or smiling more than I normally would to try and look nonthreatening. Even though I have just as much right to be in the space as anyone I somehow feel I maybe shouldn't be just because of how I look.

I am a lesbian, but I don't think that is why I feel uncomfortable.

Sorry this is quite rambling, i'm not really sure of what I am asking any more, but if anyone has any thoughts on this topic I would really appreciate it.

Women are welcome in women's spaces. There are butch women and feminine women and androgynous women, but all are women. I've never heard anyone say that any female shouldn't be welcomed.

You're a woman, you have every right to occupy your space in female spaces.

To be honest I may look twice if I saw somebody I thought was a man in a woman only space but then if the person had minimal facial hair no matter their clothes or hairstyle I'd quickly conclude it was more likely to be a butch woman than a man just ignoring all social convention.

Most butch women (as opposed to trans-men) tend to look like women really in the face shape, particularly in a context where you expect only women.

I can't think why anyone would have a problem?

Especially in changing rooms where it is obvious women come in all shapes, sizes and flavours!

It is a non-issue. It ought to be anyway. I hope it is for you.

I find the idea that another woman might feel uncomfortable using the ladies loos pretty upsetting.

Having long hair, high heels and lipstick doesn't make a person any more female than you.

I wouldn't feel threatened by you, or think anything of your style and I sincerely hope that no one else would either.

I don't think I've ever mistaken a butch woman for a man. Even if she chooses to present herself in an androgynous way, she's still unmistakably a woman to me. As a woman, you have every right to occupy women-only spaces and feel confident in doing so.

I agree with everyone else - women's spaces are open to all women, regardless of appearance.

Thanks for the replies everyone. Eigg your comment especially was very helpful - how I look doesn't have anything to do with whether I am female!

I don't have much to add really except that I have exactly the same experience as you TCD4. I find myself trying to look more obviously female when going to a public toilet and I know what it's like to get strange looks, or be told you're in the wrong one. It does suck. I tend to veer dramatically between feeling guilty for maybe making other people feel threatened and then being pissed off that my female-ness is less recognised.

What about a transwoman with no facial hair - many people think those people aren't welcome in such places?

If someone who looks "manly" but is a woman is welcome (and why shouldn't they be), what about a transwoman who might look a bit like a man but has no facial hair?

Would they be welcome in a female toilet?

TC I'm happy if I've helped a little.

I have a truly wonderful friend who sounds like her personal style is similar to yours.

She's talented, hardworking, kind,generous and a funny and very precious friend. I'd be terribly angry if I found out that she was being made to feel uncomfortable by other women for her perfectly respectable, if slightly less mainstream style, so your post hit a bit of a cord.

What Eigg said. I hate the thought of you feeling like you have to take off your sweater or otherwise signal that you're a woman. I get it, and it's actually very considerate of you, but I don't like thinking of you or anyone feeling like they have to signal some degree of nearness to a visual standard of femininity just because a greater number of women fall closer to that mark.

I can imagine being a little surprised for half a second, if I saw someone in a women's bathroom whom I didn't immediately (subconsciously, I suppose) recognize as a woman. But it's not like being surprised for half a second is going to hurt me.

If someone who looks "manly" but is a woman is welcome (and why shouldn't they be), what about a transwoman who might look a bit like a man but has no facial hair?

I really resent the idea that all there is to being a woman is looking stereotypically like a woman. Many women - for example, those with polycystic ovaries - have facial hair. Lack of facial hair does not define women.

i was first to mention the facial hair and in sorry I did not mean that any woman with facial hair doesn't look like a woman. I meant a full male-pattern beard. I was saying that I would just assume that a person in a woman's space IS a woman despite build, breast size, hair style etc. EXCEPT if they had a full beard - that would make me wonder.
I would expect any woman with a full beard to understand that Her appearance is so far from the social norm she shouldn't be offended if somebody double-takes.

Butch women look like women imo i wouldnt bat an eye if you were in the toilet as realisraclly men dont go into womens toilets please stop taking your jumper off or feeling uncomfortable.

Typos sorry.

Over glad i'm not the only one!
Orlando I have been wondering about that myself for a while. I imagine that many trans women would look a lot more obviously female than me, as the trans women I know personally present themselves in a very feminine way. So it does seem odd that some people would welcome me but not a trans woman.

Well the feminine appearance thing is a discussion we had before in the context of intimate examinations by HCPs where a transwoman attempted to argue that if a HCP looked sufficiently feminine and managed to deceive a woman who would prefer to be examined by a biological woman, no harm done.

I can't get with that at all. How stereotypically feminine someone presents as is not the issue for most women and I'm really concerned with the creeping idea that all that matters is how you look.

What about in the toilet situation?
People accept and rightly so that a woman is welcome regardless of appearance. If they make someone feel uncomfortable, then it is not their fault.

But the general concensus is that a transwoman who looks a bit like a man would not be welcome as they make some women feel uncomfortable. I totally understand why some women would feel uncomfortable.

But how do you separate out the difference between a transwoman in a toilet and a woman who may look a bit manly in a toilet. Both might make you feel uncomfortable but the women is welcomed and the transwoman is not welcome.

Yes. Being a woman has very little if anything to do with how you choose to look.

don't worry about it, just carry on. Perhaps ignore people a bit more, certainly do not be smiling and taking off ur jacket! fuck em!

I remember once years ago a drunken old woman chased after me into the ladies loos as from the back I looked like a man, long flashers coat lol, jeans, boots and short hair.
She grabbed the back of my coat and was utterly mortified when I turned round.

I also think if you get looks then its their issue not yours how you dress or have your hair is no reflection on you as a woman

It would not bother me in the slightest.

I used to play a lot of football, and on at least 2 teams I've played for, lesbians have been in the majority (ranging from butch to, for want of a better phrase, average looking, through to ver feminine). I never thought twice about showering with them.

I do have an interesting conundrum which has always puzzled me about this, though, which hit me when I was playing for a very good 5-a-side team (about half-and-half lesbian/straight - squad of players was more than 5, in case you're wondering how that works). I also had a gay male friend who asked me to do some modelling for a photography project he was working on (not that I have stereotypical model looks, more in the artist's model sense of finding my face an interesting one to photograph). He wanted some head and shoulders shots with naked shoulders, which I was quite happy to do with a towel wrapped round me. But it struck me as interesting that it was very clearly sex rather than possible sexual interest which determined whether I felt comfortable naked round people. I was quite happy being naked with my gay football team mates but not round my gay male friend (towel stayed very firmly in place). It sort of puzzled me at the time that the social conditioning was totally round the issue of biological sex, not sexual orientation. I'm not sure where I'm going with this, just thought I'd put it out there as an example of how one's gut reactions and cognitive thought processes can sometimes be at odds. (BTW, please don't take from this that I thought I was irresitable and all my team mates fancied me - I definitely wasn't, and they didn't!)