Butch women in female spaces

[TCD4]

Hi everyone, i've been lurking on this board for a while but this is my first post, so apologies if it is a stupid question.

I was just wondering how people feel about the issue of butch women / whether this is a feminist issue. I have read threads on here in which some posters argue that trans women shouldn't have access to some women's spaces etc.

I am a masculine looking woman, I don't exactly set out to be but I have short hair, feel comfortable in jeans and shirts, and I do often get mistaken for a man. This doesn't bother me as I choose to present myself in quite an androgynous way, although it is quite annoying that people feel completely unable to have a conversation without first establishing whether I am male or female.

However I do feel uncomfortable in women's bathrooms. I know that if a woman mistook me for a man they could feel threatened by my being there, which I don't want. I find myself taking off jumpers before going to the loo to try and emphasize the fact I have breasts, or smiling more than I normally would to try and look nonthreatening. Even though I have just as much right to be in the space as anyone I somehow feel I maybe shouldn't be just because of how I look.

I am a lesbian, but I don't think that is why I feel uncomfortable.

Sorry this is quite rambling, i'm not really sure of what I am asking any more, but if anyone has any thoughts on this topic I would really appreciate it.

Are we talking about TW here? I thought this thread was about a butch looking woman. Can we have at least one thread discussing changing rooms/loos without a 'what about the TW' thing, please?

If you want to discuss the TW in the loo thing yet again, you could always start a new thread?

No we are talking about a lesbian woman who feels she doesnt look femmine enough

Why would a butch woman make someone feel uncomfortable?

Because they might look like a man and that might make people feel uncomfortable. But it clearly doesn't.

So no parallels to how a transwoman makes someone feel, is there?

People rightly have no issue with a woman who might look "mannish" in a female area like a toilet. But they do have an issue with a transwoman in such an area.

Can you see any parallels or contradictions with these positions or are they completely separate, unconnected issues?

There are plenty of threads on here where people say they feel uncomfortable with someone who looks "mannish" in a female toilet. But when a woman says she looks mannish,people are saying "that's ok, no issue at all".

"There are plenty of threads on here where people say they feel uncomfortable with someone who looks "mannish" in a female toilet. But when a woman says she looks mannish,people are saying "that's ok, no issue at all".

No, you're wrong. People have said they are uncomfortable with what are clearly male-bodied transwomen in female toilets, and that is a distinct and separate issue from a butch-looking woman in a female toilet.

How can you tell a transwoman are the twirling their penises or something

How can I tell? Quite easily, actually. Unfortunately, the vast majority of MTFs don't pass at all. Height, build, necks, hips, wrists, and facial bone structure are the glaringly obvious clues.

It's quite nice to know that most people don't have an issue with people who might look a bit mannish in such areas like toilets. I know some women who have been hassled in toilets because they look butch. That's not right and it must be very hard in such a situation.

Anyway, before I derail the thread further, as another androgynous woman, I've occasionally had the odd double-take as I enter a female bathroom but another glance is enough to reassure people that I'm a woman.

Please don't feel that you need to change your appearance or behaviour, I can't think why anyone would feel threatened by a lesbian in a female toilet. It's not known for being a place conducive to picking up women!

But the op feels that is what she looks like that is why she is taking her jumper off so people see her breasts overly cheery so as other women are not intimidated and think she is a man i dont know it just seems unfair anyway there is a massive thread going on about trans women in changingrooms this thread is seperate.

My DP is butch, on some days she looks just like a man - she has an androgynous body shape and very small breasts. She regularly feels uncomfortable in women's spaces. Occasionally she asks for me to accompany her to the bathroom/changing rooms in potentially hostile environments, so she looks "like a lesbian" (which incidentally she isn't), rather than a man. As an aside, she once remarked that this only minimises stares/questioning looks when I am not presenting as femme.

She hates it, but obviously isn't prepared to change her appearance to suit others. People can easily say they wouldn't mind on a thread when presented with all the information (butch woman), but it can be a whole different ballgame when they just see what they see (butch person, potentially man).

The trans issue can be totally separate, and seems to be in this instance, but the two can often be very interlinked, so the comparison is valid.

The trans issue is a completely separate one.

It's also not part of the scope of this thread. Sorry your thread got derailed slightly OP, hopefully it will stay on topic now.

puffins

Are you comfortable with someone who looks by their own words, mannish, and who has been mistaken for a male in a female toilets?

Would you give them a second glance or just ignore them?

I'm sure you would be.

The problem is that presumably it's reasonable to object to a man in the "women only" area. Otherwise there's no point to them. And therefore anyone who looks like a man to the casual observer is going to get looks even if they only express the thought process "Is that a man in here?!?! Oh, no, now I look closer I see it's a woman with a rather butch appearance, that's fine, I'll get on with my day."

Short of replacing all such spaces with gender neutral individual cubicles I'm not sure there's a solution.

Rita, is it right that women have to be scrutinised for breasts, soft feminine features, etc. before they are given another woman's permission to be in the toilet?

Surely that's what it boils down to.

Rita I think your comment sums up exactly why I feel uncomfortable. Because obviously if I WAS a man then people would absolutely be right to complain, challenge me, or tell the management or bouncers and get me thrown out (all of which have happened to me unfortunately).

I choose to look and dress the way I do, and could wear a dress and grow my hair if I wanted (although I would look a bit of a pillock).

It's really nice to hear that most people would have no problem. I guess the issue is that people have such a strong set idea of what a woman should be it freaks some people out when you look different.

It's absolutely not right that women have to be scrutinised. But if the concept of a women only space is meaningful then there is a concept of "women are allowed in, men are forbidden" behind it, and perhaps an underlying suspicion that men might try to "invade" and should be resisted.

Orlando... what on earth does that have to do with TW? Nothing. Nothing at all. Women in women's loos and changing rooms is no problem at all. Thought that had been established.

Do you have a particular axe to grind here? Or do you just enjoy derailing threads with irrelevancies? It's not very kind to the OP to constantly try and change the subject of their thread, is it?

puffins

Great. So you're fine with women who look mannish in toilet areas and wouldn't give them a second glance.

It's a shame that the OP originally felt her appearance made women feel uncomfortable. It's great to hear that her appearance doesn't make you feel uncomfortable and you wouldn't care one way or the other.

It's a shame that there have been women who have been kicked out of such areas for looking like men.But it happens

cityroom.blogs.nytimes.com/2007/10/09/ejection-of-a-woman-from-a-womens-room-prompts-lawsuit/?_r=0

And these 2.

www.itv.com/news/london/2015-01-14/lesbian-couple-ordered-out-cinema-toilets-after-being-mistaken-for-men/

You're relentless. I'm out.

Grind that axe to yourself.

Then there's this:

butchboo.blogspot.co.uk/2009/01/wee-pain.html

Boy do I have some toilet tales to tell...like the time I went to the toilet in a casino in the Bahamas and was marched out by a guard wth a gun held to my head! Like the time I had three attendants try and break down the cubicle door whilst I shouted for help and for them to leave me alone (I was petrified). Like the time when a woman ran out screaming and fetched two bartenders to come and get me out, she then threatened to spit at me.

Yes, I can honestly say that going to the toilet has certainly not been easy for Boo!

And what has caused these people to act in such a manner? They think I'm in the wrong toilet and that I should be in the mens'.

These experiences though, I'm loathed to admit it have taken their toll over the years and having to go the toilet in a public space can often cause me a great deal of trauma and distress. I find that I now always hum or sing loudly upon entry, I try and bring a companion along with me so I can chat with her and be seen as female. I plan when I will go and where and I avoid going at any costs if I possibly can

I think Cigars has it right

People can easily say they wouldn't mind on a thread when presented with all the information (butch woman), but it can be a whole different ballgame when they just see what they see (butch person, potentially man

The OP is about feeling uncomfortable as a butch woman in female places. There are several examples of butch women being treated unfairly in female places.

So it seems that there are women who feel uncomfortable with it. There are women who make butch women feel uncomfortable despite what some people say on here.

I can see why a butch woman would want to give off signals she's female.

I find that I now always hum or sing loudly upon entry, I try and bring a companion along with me so I can chat with her and be seen as female

If you google, you'll find more butch women's experiences.

www.autostraddle.com/butch-please-butch-in-the-bathroom175366/

It’s a pretty regular experience for me: clients who walk into the bathroom I’m in always ask if they are in the right one, dressing rooms are consistently a place where I have to confront it, usually I just say “No, I go over here (walk to the women’s side)” when they tell me to go the men’s side.

Also, at the gym, women won’t change near me, and I used to get asked to leave. I’m not bothered by it anymore, I get “sir’d” or “young man’d” daily so I’ve stopped paying as much attention. The worst of it was in high school gym and sports: changing in the locker room was synonymous with beating, usually by teammates.”

Yes but the OP has not had any of those dramatic experiences! She has simply asked for opinions on whether she is making other people feel uncomfortable or not, and most people have replied, "No, you're fine" because most people seem to find it straight-forward that a butch woman, even if it takes a quick second glance, is actually easily identifiable as a woman and so there is no real issue.

Also, the OP made it clear that this is her first thread and was feeling self-conscious about asking this question in the first place so most people seem to have replied in a gentle, understanding manner. To reply by derailing it and making it about transwomen instead is a little unkind, really.

Sorry you have had those experiences, Orlando, but that is not really what the OP's thread is about. Perhaps you could put them in a separate thread?

I understand that - and my intention was not to be unkind. Sorry OP

But - butch women do seem to have issues with being in female spaces. They are made to feel uncomfortable, to use tactics to show they are female or to even avoid going to the toilet altogether.

It's great to say to the OP that you wouldn't have a problem. That does not really help as it seems there is an issue.

Can you imagine avoiding going to the toilet because people make you feel uncomfortable? For most people,it's not something you even think about.

But for some people, it's a massive issue.

I have a question for the women here who describe themselves as butch.

I have small children who tend to ask inopportune questions; I would be unsurprised if DS1 saw a butch woman in the women's toilets (or wherever) and said 'Is that a man Mummy?'

Now as with so many child-related things, it all hangs on my reply. I wouldn't want to embarrass my son's victim, so should I opt for a simple 'No, that's a lady dear' or should I expand to explain to him that ladies can have short hair too (and hopefully reassure the lady in question if she's sensitive about being mis-identified)? Would it be OTT to apologise to her for his rudeness and say 'Kids hey, they like everyone to be neatly categorised', or would that make the situation worse for her?

I don't want to be the direct or indirect cause of upset!!