Butch women in female spaces

[TCD4]

Hi everyone, i've been lurking on this board for a while but this is my first post, so apologies if it is a stupid question.

I was just wondering how people feel about the issue of butch women / whether this is a feminist issue. I have read threads on here in which some posters argue that trans women shouldn't have access to some women's spaces etc.

I am a masculine looking woman, I don't exactly set out to be but I have short hair, feel comfortable in jeans and shirts, and I do often get mistaken for a man. This doesn't bother me as I choose to present myself in quite an androgynous way, although it is quite annoying that people feel completely unable to have a conversation without first establishing whether I am male or female.

However I do feel uncomfortable in women's bathrooms. I know that if a woman mistook me for a man they could feel threatened by my being there, which I don't want. I find myself taking off jumpers before going to the loo to try and emphasize the fact I have breasts, or smiling more than I normally would to try and look nonthreatening. Even though I have just as much right to be in the space as anyone I somehow feel I maybe shouldn't be just because of how I look.

I am a lesbian, but I don't think that is why I feel uncomfortable.

Sorry this is quite rambling, i'm not really sure of what I am asking any more, but if anyone has any thoughts on this topic I would really appreciate it.

Plumping I personally wouldn't be at all offended or upset by your son asking, or embarrassed even. I think saying that some women have short hair etc would be a good way to handle it.

I generally find that if people are unsure and just ask, it is absolutely fine.

TCD and Orlando
I feel really sad for you feeling uncomfortable and at other women's thoughtlessness.

I doubt any woman would be offended. Small children say things that adults merely think, when I looked a lot more androgynous I was asked a fair few times if I was a man by ernest looking small children, I tended to smile and tell them that no, I am a woman. Just mildly amused me.

It's not irrational for women to be uncomfortable with the presence of men in bathrooms, changing rooms, dorms etc. I'd feel embarrassed if I found myself giving a second look to a butch woman in a bathroom because I'm opposed to the concept of "dressing like a woman". I think you're being very considerate TCD4 in trying to reassure women you're not a man.

You sound like a very reasonable sort, TCD4 - many people get very upset at children and their questions, despite our best efforts to shut them up distract them

Flora, quite. It's not 'butch' looking women that harm other women generally after all.

Some of those stories on that blog are really sad. Women who avoid going to the toilet because they are made to feel uncomfortable and women who feel they have to make an effort to reassure other women that they are women. It is understandable why the presence of someone who looks butch might make women feel uncomfortable but it does at the same time impact on women who need to use such facilities.

Most people don't have to think about these issues when they go to the toilet.

When women are uncomfortable with men or women who look butch in the toilet, it's often caused by the fear of rape or assault. Many women have experienced rape or assault so I wouldn't wave it off with an assumption that women don't have to think about anything when they go to the bathroom etc.

In countries where women have no safe facilities girls can't go to school or, as with those poor Indian girls, get raped going to fields.

Maybe if men didn't keep pushing into women's boundaries and gas lighting them that they are at fault for their fear and discomfort, women would fear them less.

What Buffy said.

Personally, I would like it if we all had unisex loos with locking cubicles, and I wouldn't give a shit who's where. But it's a bit cheap for me to say that, because I have never had a bad experience in that context. Lots of other women have, and if you're scared, you're scared.

The answer isn't to start playing oppression olympics, IMO (and transmen win that particularly horrible contest, I would think?). The answer is to get rid of the violence in society that means someone has to feel afraid doing something as basic as using a toilet.

The common underlying theme is the understandable fear of male violence. It's perfectly understandable why women fear people who they think are male in such a space and no one should blame them.

This fear of male violence impacts on many people - and yes, even when going to the toilet (and not just in this country).

DP has had UTIs in the past when we've been on holiday and she's been too scared to go to either gender's toilet, so I would agree it's a problem.

But I totally agree, no woman should be made to feel guilty about being scared of men in the toilets. I just wish the woman I love wasn't too scared to pee when needs to and doesn't risk having her dysphoria triggered by strangers staring at her chest.

When I was a child, my mother, my sister and I were often all mistaken for males. I don't think that women should feel guilty or in any way bad for their style of dress.

But there are many other reasons why some of us may intimidate other women in women's spaces. I don't think it is as simple as we should all feel welcome and women giving someone a second glance or who feel intimidated are doing something wrong.

Women sometimes mistake me for a man or a trans woman (if I dress in a feminine way) because I am taller than most men. I am also middle aged, not pregnant, have no visible physical disabilities and don't have social anxiety. There are elderly women, teens, girls, pregnant women, disabled women and women with social anxiety who all have reason to potentially be intimidated by me because I hold more social power than some of them and I am literally bigger and stronger than some of the others.

Most people who grown up tall know that you should, at some basic level of courtesy, be careful not to give an impression of being intimidating because your physical presence can already be a little intimidating to some people.

OP, you sound like a very courteous person who is concerned about the well being of others. You shouldn't feel you have to dress any particular way.

Thanks everyone for the comments, I want to make it clear that I am absolutely not saying I blame any women who mistake me for a man in any way.

almondcakes I really appreciate your comment, I know a lot of people on this thread have said I shouldn't go out of my way to try and appear more feminine when using these spaces, but I agree it is in some ways courtesy to other people.

I know the feeling OP. I have frequently felt an air of tension, nervous looks and a concerted edging away when I enter women only spaces (public toilets, changing rooms, the women's weight room etc). Fortunately for me, while looking butch as hell, I am also quite small, so no one seems to see me as a real threat. But I have found that it helps to just say something, anything, "Are those your shoes?" "How's the soap?". It gives everyone a chance to hear my voice and it signalises a general goofy sort of harmlessness.
Plumping - don't sweat it! If I have 10p for every time I've told a small child "I'm a lady with short hair", I'd have enough for a small latte and a bag of crisps. Your child is learning!

I have long hair now, but when I was younger I had short hair and was pretty flat chested. I once went to drop something off for a friend, who was out. It was winter, dark and I had a think (man's) coat on and trousers. I knocked on the front door and then went around the back and knocked on that door in case she was in the kitchen. My friend later told me her flat mate had seen me, and had gone upstairs to hide with the lights off thinking I was a man who might have gone around the back to break in.

It is not a great feeling to know I had scared somebody that much.

While I am not butch, and am just a tall woman who sometimes wears coats and trousers, I don't think the OP should think think of dressing in a butch way as a thing bringing her comfort and other women discomfort. Being butch brings the OP some comfort and some problems (like pretty much any other way women dress), and while it may cause some women some worries, it also hugely benefits women as a group. It is liberating for all women that we can wear a more masculine (and often more practical) style of dress and that some women do that all the time, particularly when many of those women are also lesbians. So I do not think it should be seen as something that is having a mostly negative impact on other women. It is primarily a positive thing.

And sorry OP, I don't know why I've written that as if you are not on the thread. I should have written 'you' not 'the OP.'