"Men and women are just different and have different skills and talents"

[reddaisy]

I have heard so many variations on that comment that I really need to properly articulate my objections.

My belief is that gender differences are often as a result of learnt behaviour and most of us are all complicit even if it just means buying a 'little monster' t-shirt for a boy.

Following on from the boat race thread where it was argued that for true equality, men and women should compete against each other, it is clear that there are biological differences between the sexes which impact on their performances.

I keep reading conflicting scientific reports on the differences between men and women's brain and what, if anything, that actually means about different skills/intelligence etc.

So, can we talk about this and explore the perceived innate differences between men and women?

Hoof oil for me.

And agree about the difference between grassroots and high level. Because that never happens in anything else either....

No one here is saying that it should be or is for girls anyway. But it's about perception in society. The saddle club wasn't a series aimed at boys. Horse and pony magazines (which I wallpapered my room with) weren't aimed at boys. There were a handful of boys I knew who rode but they tended to be from horse-owning and -riding families, whereas the girls ranged from families who owned horses to show to those who just went along for a weekly lesson. I know lots of people who (drag) hunt - it's not my thing as I do dressage - and there are a good few more men there. As with many things, the number of men at the top of the sport seems disproportionate to the number at grassroots level, but I don't know if that is truly the case.

But this is rather beside the point as usual

Spent so long writing that that I cross-posted re grass-roots!

I know what you mean about saddle soap

The amount of energy that is spent refuting Stilllostatthestation's assumptions about posters here, good grief!

According to the Encyclopaedia of Horseriding (aka the Novels of Jilly Cooper) lots of men are involved in horseriding. [wink}

So between us we've got dressage, eventing and cross country.

And a couple hundred mile cattle drive

Also, David Beckham on a horse:

www.standard.co.uk/incoming/article8781444.ece/alternates/w620/becktop.jpg

David beckham is v sensible to find himself a horse that doesn't require you to pick up frozen poo from a massive field in biting wind. That'll be his logical male brain.

"Those of you who think horses are a girl's activity have you ever actually been at a stables or a show or an event or a hunt?"

Yep. I have!

Since the thread has become about horses, I'll chuck in cattle mustering.

It's interesting actually - where I grew up, there are two distinct 'types' of riding - work (manly, risky) and show/leisure (more female).

So, pony club was full of girls, my girls' school had an equestrian club while my brothers' school didn't; but on the land where horses are part of essential kit, riding for mustering, etc, is a male-dominated pursuit.

There wasn't a ten year old girl in my juniors who hadn't read My Friend Flicka.

I'd've been very surprised if any of the boys had had horse riding parties as well.

I will freely own to growing up down south and being 30 something; Still, I think, is a number of miles and a number of years north of me so it's quite possible we have different life experiences....

As was discussed on the rowing thread, eventing and dressage are sex-neutral in the Olympics and I wonder if that's made possible in part by plenty of girls choosing riding when pre-teen. Of course riding requires a certain amount of money too.

And back to the risk thing - occasionally we get an MRA poster thinking women should be thankful for all the men through history who have died in wars for Our Freedom. No mention of all the women in history who died in childbirth or of childbed fever, of course...

I used to help out in a local stables where the day to day maintenance was performed by two horse-loving women. They were inundated with volunteer applications from horse-loving teenage girls.

There was this one girl who was really excited to be working there. She asked the manager "can girls be jockeys?" to which the reply was "well yes but they'd have to be as brave as a man"..

It was the exact sare response that Tops got when she asked if women could be firefighters! Girls are always given the message that they are not brave that it becomes a self fulfilling prophecy.

Ok, I'm in there with the competitive horse stuff, long distance riding anyone? Look in Horse &Hound, mostly women, (except for racing - & that's changing especially at the bottom end, but don't expect to keep your job if you get Pregnant)
Despite men excelling the majority of competitors are women. Read any of the equestrian magazines, from Pony to British Horse, mostly women. Go to a show, mostly women. Especially at the lower levels.
I've lost a finger, been air ambulanced with a head injury and broken the end off my femur. It's funking dangerous.
Go to a meet of your local hunt (please don't hit anyone with a placard) mostly women.
I also breed ponies, who buys them? Mostly women, apart from stallions, I've got two colts booked for this year by men. For some reason it's mostly men who keep entires.
I'm talking about the UK here, my wider experience is limited.

I don't think that risk taking behaviour differences in adults are terribly surprising given that girls are encouraged to be careful and boys to be wild from pretty much their first independent moments. Or that babies are treated so differently either (studies showing that a pink or blue babygrow influences whether babies are bounced around or cooed at).

I am actually a risk manager and fairly recently took part in a research project about risk managers risk attitudes, which was quite interesting. However I was really really irritated when the results came out and there was a gender difference that one of the researchers came out with evo pych crap as to why. Just so irritating and facile.

Oh yes and the evaluation tool didn't look at any areas of risk taking for women, like having children or choosing a partner, or any of the 'women be scared' stuff like walking alone at night etc. I bet they might have picked up some risk taking there!

I've been mulling the feminine characteristics being basic human decency point that Almond made, and I think she's right. I think that kindness, thoughtfulness, helpfulness, empathy are all classically feminine, and things that everyone should be (in fact, it's exactly what I've heard everyone in childcare trying to teach all the little ones)

So where are we going wrong? At what point do we and the teachers stop teaching our boys to have 'kind hands' and start teaching them to tease? Or stop teaching them to share and be a good loser rather than be competitive and aggressive?

"I've been mulling the feminine characteristics being basic human decency point that Almond made, and I think she's right. I think that kindness, thoughtfulness, helpfulness, empathy are all classically feminine, and things that everyone should be"

yes i was thinking about this on the way to work and i agree

re the teaching thing, when i think about my own upbringing where i was the only girl with lots of brothers, in fact the expectation was that the boys would need to be taught these things, but i wouldn't need to be as they would come naturally to me. so i don't know whether it's as simple as teaching iyswim. the expectation was that they wouldn't display these characteristics naturally so would need to be actively taught, and if they didn't manage to pick it up easily then it's because it was difficult for boys. it was the opposite for me - it was expected that those behaviours would come naturally, and if i deviated i was punished. so the teaching method was different iyswim. this is rather stream of consciousness so not sure whether it makes sense

i'm talking about very small children here btw

I think media influences are there too. Look at the films kids watch. Men/boys doing things, blazing a trail superheroey style. Women more thoughtful, dealing with the feelings (Big Hero Six I'm looking at you!). Kids pick up on this. I also agree about competitive sport. Often violent, certainly all about discarding any feelings you may have for your opposition. Competitiveness is also a trait of capitalism, which as we know advantages men (maybe because of the competitiveness which is instilled in boys/men). It always makes me laugh (not really but you know what I mean) when people talk about "competitive mummies" when men show their competitiveness All. The. Time. It isn't acceptable to be competitive whilst being a mummy but Dad's encouraging their kids to do sport. Well that's different. And can I just say on that, IME men are equally as competitive (or proud whichever way you'd like to look at it) about their kids achievements as women. Maybe even more so (DH I'm looking at you!).

I think almond's points about feminine traits are really valid and I completely agree.

Yes to all of that. And I think it's not often about what we actively teach but about the messages we give. We might well teach small boys "kind hands" along with the girls but then when it comes to a squabble do we actively teach empathetic, kind, helpful, co-operative strategies on how to deal with that? No, most of the time we regard it as entirely unimportant which child ends up with the toy as long as the argument is over and a semblance of calm is reached. The children, while understanding that fighting is discouraged, still end up with a pretty strong idea of who "won" that interaction and what that means. This is never addressed at all by the adults. And then they go home and watch an episode of Thomas where the trouble-causing trucks are shunted back into their rightful place behind the important engines.

But it's just a toy, right? It's just a TV programme. God, I'm making everything into a feminist issue again, I should just lighten up.