"Men and women are just different and have different skills and talents"

[reddaisy]

I have heard so many variations on that comment that I really need to properly articulate my objections.

My belief is that gender differences are often as a result of learnt behaviour and most of us are all complicit even if it just means buying a 'little monster' t-shirt for a boy.

Following on from the boat race thread where it was argued that for true equality, men and women should compete against each other, it is clear that there are biological differences between the sexes which impact on their performances.

I keep reading conflicting scientific reports on the differences between men and women's brain and what, if anything, that actually means about different skills/intelligence etc.

So, can we talk about this and explore the perceived innate differences between men and women?

The only context I have heard where males are referred to as 'hormonal' is as moody, stroppy or horny teenagers.

I think there are reasons why feminists might be less interested in hormonal gender differences. One being that it might be seen as letting men off the hook for violent or anti-social behaviour. That is if there are any significant differences. As I said before, I don't know.

I'm seriously bored of this neurotrash business. This "biological difference" always is used to say that women are shit or to justify shitty treatment of women. I wish it would just fucking stop.

Sometimes I can't even bear to say this much.

(Compare and contrast my "discourse" to Buffy's. )

I went on Fire Safety training today (work for NHS) and the trainer, who wa a man, told us that when there's a fire, women tend to pick up their handbags and coats and run for it, whereas men just can't wait to grab the nearest fire extinguisher and get stuck in. He put this down to men being stupid and women being more intelligent. Chortle chortle. How very hilarous

I realised I could either sigh deeply and let it wash over me, or go into a full on screaming melt down right then and there. Today, I chose the former. It was a challenge though

'I wish it would just fucking stop'

This. Very much this. It makes me so tired

This "biological difference" always is used to say that women are shit or to justify shitty treatment of women.

Is that the nub of the problem, then? What if it were used instead to say 'this is (partly) why men are violent/antisocial/twatty - what do we do about it?' Does that move the discussion on to somewhere more useful?

I think a quote from Dworkin is appropriate in response to that Yops

I don’t believe rape is inevitable or natural. If I did, I would have no reason to be here. If I did, my political practice would be different than it is. Have you ever wondered why we [women] are not just in armed combat against you? It’s not because there’s a shortage of kitchen knives in this country. It is because we believe in your humanity, against all the evidence.

Even if violence is down to "biological differences" in men socialisation can overcome it. I get desperately sad on threads where people come on and seem to think violence is inevitable.

Having nimble fingers was seen as a female skill for years and is partly based in biology because girls tend to develop fine motor skills earlier than boys (again bell curve etc).

Funny then, that it didn't lead to all surgeons or mechanics being female - oh no, that kind of technical skill is MANLY and besides you don't want to get blood/oil on you - go use your nimble fingers for cross stitch or darning instead.

'It is because we believe in your humanity, against all the evidence'

That's really lovely - I find it very moving actually

"What if it were used instead to say 'this is (partly) why men are violent/antisocial/twatty - what do we do about it?' Does that move the discussion on to somewhere more useful?"

I don't think so. Not if it's crouched in "biological difference" talk. What can be done about that? Castration? It's bollocks. (See what I've done there.)

Again John Stuart Mill said fucking ages ago: can we fucking stop looking at things and think that's the way nature intended and instead think a bit about fucking why. (Swear words mine. It makes me so angry.)

Sorry - not having a go at you yop. It's the topic.

Going to the park now to try to forget this.

Interesting stuff. I'll knock it off for now. I am not here to antagonise. And no need to apologise, Upto. Sorry if I upset you.

I am also really, really tired of all this neuro bollocks.

Also evo psych.

*iIt is because we believe in your humanity, against all the evidence'

That's really lovely - I find it very moving actually*

Really? my reaction is that is why I have no interest in reading anything by her.

I don’t believe rape is inevitable or natural. If I did, I would have no reason to be here. If I did, my political practice would be different than it is.

That's also a strange thing to write. What difference would it make if rape was natural? Did she believe that our hominid or early human ancestors would have had some moral inhibition against it for some reason - or killing and stealing for that matter. There are many examples of forced intercourse in animals including apes, it is well documented in Orangutans.

human behaviour is that which humans do - what on earth does 'inhuman' mean in a biological sense ? Behaviour not found amongst humans ?

Buffy, I don't know what to think yet. I began by wanting to understand the differences in hormones between the genders, but from the tiny bit I read, it's an incredibly complex subject. How much of a hormone you have isn't the be-all and end all, and they produce different effects in different people, and different effects in men and women. So it's too simplistic to say 'men are arseholes because of testosterone - whaddayagonnado?'

But equally, I don't know how someone can claim that all behaviours can be socialised away, if there are other underlying factors that we don't fully understand yet. I can see why feminism would want this to be the case, and I think that that is behind the Dworkin quote. But I think the quote is contradictory - surely the reason women haven't armed themselves is because they are socialised not to?

Summary - I don't know

Buffy what rankles is the sweeping generality of "we" as some sort of superior being are prepared to concede there still might be some humanity in some men. Gee thanks.

Scallops ... That's a great Dworkin quote, thanks for posting. My present favourite is

Feminism is hated because women are hated. Anti-feminism is a direct expression of misogyny; it is the political defense of women hating.

The Daily Dworkin hashtag is well worth a read.

Sorry, as you were....