"Men and women are just different and have different skills and talents"

[reddaisy]

I have heard so many variations on that comment that I really need to properly articulate my objections.

My belief is that gender differences are often as a result of learnt behaviour and most of us are all complicit even if it just means buying a 'little monster' t-shirt for a boy.

Following on from the boat race thread where it was argued that for true equality, men and women should compete against each other, it is clear that there are biological differences between the sexes which impact on their performances.

I keep reading conflicting scientific reports on the differences between men and women's brain and what, if anything, that actually means about different skills/intelligence etc.

So, can we talk about this and explore the perceived innate differences between men and women?

Er, I wasn't struggling at all, just pointing out a trend of horseriding being seen as a female activity, most people who do "normal" horseriding ie not competitive racing then look after their own horses. It's about the relationship with the horse, much like many motorbike enthusiasts feel an affinity to their bike.

Whereas jockeying is more male dominated, and a different thing.

I have to smile at the idea that young girls from rich families ride horses and young boys play rugby, because this exactly describes my half siblings. Though they are not rich. My stepmother is interested in horses and always has been. It is her who is the horserider, although my dad rides occasionally, and certainly mucks out the horses when it needs doing, it's not his passion. My half sister adores horses and ponies. Absolutely lives and breathes them. DBro is tall and stocky and lives in Wales, so of course he plays rugby. It would be against some kind of law if he did not

I would say DDad and SM definitely aspire to that sort of lifestyle, but anyway. This is getting somewhat off the point.

I'm sure it's the caring thing Whirlpool. Horses are a rather high maintenance pet as pets go. I think dogs are the only pet associated as masculine really. I used to read "Animals and you" magazine in the 90s which was all about puppies, kittens and rabbits and such and sometimes horses. The horse/pony mags are still around for girls, too.

Animals and you yes that's the sort of thing I'm talking about!

Thinking about it you're right, pets in general are "for girls" aren't they, animals which are actually kept as pets. Boys get fantasy pets like dinosaurs and tigers and crocodiles and there is focus on adventuring with them not looking after them. It comes back to teaching girls to be nurturing doesn't it, that that is their role. Although obviously lots of females are a bit shit on the nurturing front (and then sometimes/often run into all sorts of trouble emotionally etc when they have kids) and loads of men are v nurturing.

Reptiles! Boys are allowed to have reptiles as pets.

Everyone should be good at nurturing. It should be a basic of human decency.

Actually that is what femininity is in general - the basics of being a decent human being.

Depends what you mean by "nurturing" - in the sense of looking after vulnerable and so forth then yes. To women it's presented as this self-sacrificing thing where you gain enormous amounts of satisfaction from slaving around after other people the whole time which is a different proposition.

I would say I am "not nurturing" in the sense that it is generally expected a mother should be. I think I'm basically decent though

And tarantulas.

I used to love the Animal Ark books too. And I had loads of vet-related toys. The caring thing isn't just dolls, it's animals too.

Oops that was in response to "Boys are allowed to have reptiles"

I think this thread is getting all a bit 'I'm the exceptional woman!' as it invariably does.

Was that for me? I don't think I'm exceptional

I do think that lots of women who identify as feminists don't have personalities that conform to stereotype, from lots of threads on here, but that kind of makes sense doesn't it?

Sorry I assume that was at me and I'm not sure what I've said to draw what feels a bit attacky.

In my experience, feminists do conform to the feminine personality stereotype - they are compassionate, have empathy for others, are good at co-operation and care about what happens to other people.

Otherwise, why would they join a collective liberation movement?

I 'm not attacking you personally.

It happens in every discussion of femininity. Femininity is somehow held up to be less, wrong, pretend, fake, inauthentic.

There is nothing wrong with femininity. There is something wrong with masculinity.

I don't get a sense that anybody is showing off. It's perfectly ordinary that a person conforms to some gender roles or stereotypes but not others, and quite inevitable that that kind of dynamic gets discussed on a thread like this.

I think you'd be hard pressed to find any single person who conforms exactly to every stereotype mad about their gender - it's just really unlikely TBH.

Feminine personality stereotype also encompasses items like:

Vanity
Bitchiness
Disinterest in things like politics, science
etc etc

I was going to say that I don't think that "femininity" encompasses the basics of being a decent human being - both masculine and feminine have aspects which are positive and negative.

Feminists are people like everyone else and can't be labelled as all being X or Y. Saying they all must be X or Y seems wrong to me.

Oh right I see. I think I've misunderstood, perhaps. That is an interesting and bold proclamation. It's not one I've seen somebody make before, in fact, although I'm inclined to agree if I've understood you correctly (now).

There is plenty wrong with "femininity". Hyper-masculinity is detrimental, but the traits associate with the masculine are by no means all bad.

I'm getting a bit lost.

Are you saying that if a woman has personality traits that are not in keeping with the "feminine" then she is simply reacting to messages that women = lesser, rather than just being herself?

Gah that was to almond. Although Whirlpool makes a good point too.

I mean I can see the idea, that feminine is lesser, it was highly enforced in my family.

It doesn't mean that a woman who is more interested in outer space than ponies is a traitor to her sex though surely?

I want to say more but I need to go to bed. So hopefully I remember it all in the morning. Night all :)

I need to go to bed too

Night.

No, I'm not saying that Whirlpool.

I think that all the essential traits of a decent person are within what is defined as femininity.

If masculinity and feminity are socially constructed, we should raise all children to be mostly feminine.

Those of you who think horses are a girl's activity have you ever actually been at a stables or a show or an event or a hunt?

Horse-riding is seen as a female activity? By whom? If that's what springs to mind that's your prejudice showing, not reality.

And pets are for boys?

What is the point of these generalisations? Let's make a sweeping, unsupported generalisation that pets are seen as a girls' thing and isn't that awful.

Those of you who think horses are a girl's activity have you ever actually been at a stables or a show or an event or a hunt?

Yes. I have worked with horses, shown and evented in 4 countries. Not hunted of course, because only complete shitheads hunt.

Horse-riding is seen as a female activity? By whom? If that's what springs to mind that's your prejudice showing, not reality.

Right-ho.

"have you ever actually been at a stables or a show or an event or a hunt?"

Yes, it was a big part of my life for many years. Do I qualify as having an opinion on this worth listening to in your opinion?