Transgender kids article in today's Guardian

[TerraNovice]

Did anyone see this article about Louis Theroux's documentary that airs tonight? www.theguardian.com/society/2015/apr/05/transgender-kids-children-change-sex-families

Admittedly I have some issues with it. Is it really good to give kids hormone blockers from childhood? And I do find one of the mothers' statement problematic where she says she felt like she had a little girl because her son liked her shoes and "feminine" things and wasn't interested if you put a truck in front of him. I find these ideas of gender really reductive. A child who is uninterested in traditional masculine or feminine toys etc may not necessarily be transgender, they could be an effeminate boy or a butch girl. Why pump them full of hormones when they are very little?

Any thoughts?

Sorry that should ne how violent the language and imagery many of the binary gender trans use. Ironic ;)

And I will cite the Ghengis Khan dna discovery re the evolutionary theories - and also that I do think that some personality traits ie agression, language, sociablity, passive/assertiveness - have some basis in genetics and that as in sexuality there are clumps at each end of the continum but that does not make it the norm or only way to be.Also that socialisation reinforces most of thease in negative damaging ways - long term everyone will just be able to be 'human'

Floundering, in answer to your question what you would do, I'm answering from the perspective of having teenagers.

If someone is suicidal, it is primarily a situation of helping them. I would get specialist help and therapy for them, and yes, I would support them to have surgery if they were an older teenager and they had been through a therapeutic process.

I would not be happy with puberty blockers because it is going through puberty that allows someone to have a better understanding of their identity and sexual orientation, and I think that understanding is necessary to make an irreversible decision. But then that is easier for me to say because both my teens have a fairly androgynous physical appearance so there would be fewer 'passing' consequences - height, bone structure etc if they did turn out to be trans as adults.

Having said that, many people make decisions that irreversibly change our lives (sometimes for the worse) as young people, and sometimes that is better than the psychological damage of controlling parents stopping them from making that decision.

I'd also make sure they had plenty of gender variant adults who were not trans to talk to (as they already do) so that they had a good range of experiences and role models to draw upon.

That is because I wouldn't want them to get drawn into this notion that most people have a gender identity and that most people have gender experiences that align with their sex, which I think young people are exposed to by both consumerism and trans blogs. I think that is important whether or not they are trans as an adult, because otherwise they might end up with an unrealistic expectation of what being an adult man or woman 'feels' like, against which they may measure themselves and be distressed by.

I also think part of bringing in role models is because I would try and not control the process my child was growing through. We don't know what causes these strong trans feelings, so I can only use as my guide other body and identity issues. Many body issues are partly caused by and exacerbated by feeling that others are controlling you and what you do with your body, and I would not want to add to that. Teenagers experience identity differently to adults. Even if a teen is just something like an emo, at that moment in time it really is intensely who they are, and challenging or dismissing teen identities can be very damaging. So whatever their identity, be it about gender or something else, I would seek to respect it, however long or short lived it was.

re "insensitive" - With all respect to Floundering (and sincerely hoping you have not been hurt by my posts here), we are here to talk on this topic and I don't know how one can mention the high post-op transgender suicide rate in a nicer way than I have, saying I do understand where you are coming from... and I hope that transitioning turns out to be a source of happiness for your DS in the same post.

I do feel that 1/5 suicide attempt rate among post-op transsexuals is important to consider. Transitioning is clearly not the golden solution for happiness in trans people's lives with many de-transitioning and many others so unhappy as to attempt suicide. That needs to be acknowledged in these threads, imho.

Out of interest how does the suicide rate of people who are undergoing conversion therapy compare to those who undergo transition? If suicide is generally a high risk for trans people it's a bit meaningless to only look at the outcome of those who have undergone or attempted to undergo transition, if you don't compare it to the outcome of those who haven't.

What do you mean by conversion therapy in your post WW? Do you mean the normal type of therapy available on the NHS to help people accept themselves as they are or do you mean the religious, prayer based therapy?

I mean the type of therapy which is aimed to convince trans people that they aren't trans. Bit like a "gay cure" (which doesn't exist/work either) just aimed at trans.

Firstly, let me say that having looked through this post, I am truly saddened by some of the opinions that are held by people in this, an age where acceptance seems to be flourishing. I was shocked to see the comparison between trans and anorexia; having suffered greatly from the latter, i can assure you that it is indeed a mental illness that needs treating...which is not what i feel the need to be transgender is! Anorexia must be treated and may result in death if untreated, a need to be transgender should be nurtured. If your child has these feeling that they are in the wrong body, then they should be helped, and yes aided in their transformation by loving and caring parents. I believe that you should know your own children well enough to be able to see when they are truly serious about changing their sex. You should help them on their journey, yes you should make sure it is what they want 100%, but i disagree wholly that you should try and brush ut aside and possibly do even more psychological damage. A parent that is willing to listen, and really understand their child's needs, and to help them through difficult times is a good parent. Anyone that is unwilling to accept their child for who they are and embrace their differences is not a good parent...easy as that. In regards to gender stereotyping and boys and girls toys...the previously quoted parents speaking about their trans child were probably just using this as an example of one of the things they noticed while their child was growing up...i doubt this is what they solely based their decision on. I don't agree with gender stereotyping etc, but i think its a little naive to think that parents base their views of their children's gender preference on whether they play with cars or dolls. Anyway, rant over. Very interesting thread. X p.s floundering, i am sure you are doing the right thing for your son, keep strong and ignore negative comments...there are still many biased people in this world with archaic views.

Flora the NHS does offer help for people to accept themselves as they are but it's clear from the NHS website on transgender issues that "accepting what you are" can mean accepting one is trans.

I apologise for the "Hello" style headline 9n this site but this was from a click through on an NHS site. None of those men look anything other than men.

www.gaystarnews.com/article/11-insanely-hot-men-you-will-not-believe-are-trans181114-0

Is there a type of therapy aimed at convincing trans people they are not trans?

Surely NHS therapy is about accepting gender identities in children and adults as they define at that moment and then helping that person find the best course of treatment?

Deciding surgery isn't right for them doesn't mean somebody isn't trans. Most trans people don't want surgery.

almond cake just have a Google for the term and you'll get plenty of hits. And nope, it's not what is offered by the NHS, but it does exist (and appears to be quite dangerous)

I would assume that the risk of suicide or serious psychological outcome was really high for conversion therapy, and I thought it was to some extent illegal?

I think the poster earlier who was talking about suicide after surgery was meaning compared to the suicide rate for trans people who don't have surgery but are still trans.

holly - re "a need to be transgender should be nurtured"

Why?

More specifically, why exactly would you treat someone and hope he gets better when he says he can't stand one of his legs and wants it amputated because he would be happier as an amputee rather than cut off his leg, but encourage someone who says he can't stand his penis & breasts because he would be happier as a woman and cut them off?

CoteDazur, I use the term 'nurture' as a means of caring for, and helping to grow. Don't get me wrong, I don't believe you should take what your child says at face value and just run with it before confirming what is best for them. I do believe though that if a child desires to be transgender, then yes they should be 'encouraged' to be the person they wish to be, and feel they are inside. Would you discourage a transgender child? Also, I cant think if where I mentioned anything about amputees...

Unless the latter half of the post was not intended for me?

almondcakes there was no comparison made whatsoever (and at any rate, surgical reassignment is an option not many choose) however I get the impression that medical transition (including hormones/puberty blockers) is deemed as equally bad by those who oppose any treatment other than treating being trans as mental illness.

So all we got is the claim that transition allegedly increases risk of suicide, when there's no reference to the suicide risk of those who don't transition. So is it the transitioning that increases the risk or just the status of being trans?

Holly - You didn't mention amputees. I did. If you read my post again, I think you will see why.

Click on that link and read about people who genuinely believe they need to be amputees, that one of their limbs is too much. They really REALLY want a leg to be amputated.

Would you "encourage them to be the person they wish to be, and feel they are inside"?

If not, why not?

CoteDazur, i have indeed already read in to the subject, without the aid of wikipedia. I agree, in the same manner that if someone truly wanted to have a part if their own body removed, and was 100% positive that they needed this to feel themselves and be happy within their own body, then yes they should have that body part removed.

Widow, I think there was mention on this (or the other thread on the same topic) of the rate of suicide among trans people in general, so I assumed the figures about surgery were made in response to that.

Obviously there is going to be different figures for young gender variant children, teens, those who have surgery and those who don't.

When I answered about what I would do if it were my teen, I'm really thinking about the individual not the stats. If you have your own teen sat in front of you (taking into account gender variant children don't usually become trans adults, but the situation is different for trans teens), and they are having therapy but still strongly contemplating suicide because things are so unbearable, what do you do?

And I think you would have to support them with surgery if they wanted it, because even if that eventually leads to suicide, at least that is maybe suicide later not now. And wouldn't anyone want that? A few more years, ten, twenty, in which maybe they become happier and maybe they don't, rather than death now because therapy and support isn't working off that individual?

And I know this all sounds very sad, but feeling suicidal is sad. Being trans is not a mental illness. Being trans isn't even a medical condition requiring even seeing a doctor for some trans people. But being suicidal is a mental health problem, and sometimes that means people have to make hard decisions that may or may not make their life worse in the future just to get through the next year, month, week, day. And that isn't just trans people with mental health problems; that's anyone with mental health problems.

Holly - re "if someone truly wanted to have a part if their own body removed, and was 100% positive that they needed this to feel themselves and be happy within their own body, then yes they should have that body part removed."

The medical establishment disagrees with you, as you must know if you have indeed looked into Body Integrity Identity Disorder. As its name suggests, it is treated as a psychiatric disorder and those people's limbs are NOT routinely amputated because they say they need them cut off to feel complete and be happy.

CoteDazur,
The fact that the greater part of the medical community disagree with what I have previously stated hold no relevance to my personal opinion. They do not 'routinely' remove genitals either, there are very extensive psychological rests performed with people who wish to be transgender. There are many things stated by medical professionals that I disagree with, and many things that I agree with. As I'm sure you'll know, there is a very serious lack of help provided for people suffering from mental conditions or depression withing our health service, so I think maybe we shouldn't take all advice by meducs to be gospel. The fact that medical opinion differs depending on country surely shows an inconsistency.

May I just add that drawing comparisons between differing mental disorders is unhelpful when discussing something which should be treated on a case by case basis. It is a very monochromatic way of looking at the world

Your unconventional opinion aside, why do you think a man who thinks he is an amputee on the inside and wants his leg cut off gets therapy but another who thinks he is a woman and wants his penis cut off gets an operation to do just that?

I don't mean to put you on the spot. I am puzzled by the medical establishment's vastly different approach to what seems similar problems, and I'm interested in an answer if anyone can give one.

I wonder if it has to do with most people's acceptance of the concept of a soul, and how it can be born into "the wrong body". To me as a lifelong atheist, a consciousness that has arisen in a given body believing it is "in" the wrong body for it sounds like the very definition of a psychiatric problem.

"drawing comparisons between differing mental disorders is unhelpful"

So you see transsexuality as a mental disorder.

Why would you then encourage transitioning? Should you not advocate psychiatric treatment, as with any other mental disorder?

a slightly different perspective-
did anyone see Googlebox this week? they watched this documentary (the Louis Theroux one) and I was very interested in the response of the 2 gay guys. They were watching the little boy/girl (Crystal I think) twirling around in a dress and general girlyness. And one of them said that if that option (transgender) had been available to him, when he was that age, he would have chosen it, because he loved all things girly.
They didn't pursue it but I thought it was quite revealing. And I thought maybe it's easier for some parents to have a transgender kid than a gay kid. In the sense that it confirms rather than challenges gender norms.
I'm offering this as a possible theoretical insight not a comment in how people should behave or feel, so please believe I'm not intending to upset anyone.