Transgender kids article in today's Guardian

[TerraNovice]

Did anyone see this article about Louis Theroux's documentary that airs tonight? www.theguardian.com/society/2015/apr/05/transgender-kids-children-change-sex-families

Admittedly I have some issues with it. Is it really good to give kids hormone blockers from childhood? And I do find one of the mothers' statement problematic where she says she felt like she had a little girl because her son liked her shoes and "feminine" things and wasn't interested if you put a truck in front of him. I find these ideas of gender really reductive. A child who is uninterested in traditional masculine or feminine toys etc may not necessarily be transgender, they could be an effeminate boy or a butch girl. Why pump them full of hormones when they are very little?

Any thoughts?

CoteDazur, I think the exact opposite, I was speaking of how you reference differing mental disorders, when we are not in fact discussing a mental disorder. You vastly misunderstand. As stated previously, treatment should be drawn on a case by case basis, as should BIID...you cannot draw comparison between the two, nor can you draw comparison between any issues that a person has with their body, psyche, beliefs. The topic is about transgender individuals, nothing more. Also, I feel your statement where you compare having a leg removed, to having genitals removed very worrying. It is a very basic, and damaging view to hold
I am very curious to know what you would do if your child wished to be the opposite gender?

hollyhoward Not to be thick, but I really don't understand, how is wanting genitals removed different from wanting a leg removed? Why is one acceptable and the other is not?

InAndOfMyself,
Apologies, to clarify, I don't believe one to be more acceptable than the other. I do however think they they are separate issues entirely, one being that your wish is to have a specific body part removed in order to be happy where as the other is to wish to be a completely different gender in order to be happy, many transgender never actually have genitals removed. I feel that these two very different issues, although both completely valid in their own right, are very separate and cannot really be compared.

Hollyhoward, to say that analogizing and thinking of whether we'd use the same logic in another circumstance is impossible or wrong essentially means throwing out the entire scientific method. The idea that two similar problems with similar psychological impact should not be evaluated at all similarly is bizarre. Why is transition suddenly THE ONLY SOLUTION for these kids? Twenty years ago, was there a huge rash of transgender suicides? Fifty? A hundred years ago, where are all the suicide notes from people that say "Verily, I am a man, lo these many years, and cannot countenance being treated otherwise"?

Transition CREATED the suicide narrative. Before it was supposedly possible for literally everyone around you (even gynecologists, say some rather delusional MTFs) to never know you were ever your birth sex, the idea that you'd always be your birth sex didn't cause suicidal ideation. It's only now that there's an illusory promise of a perfect opposite-sex body, attainable through the spending of tens or hundreds of thousands of pounds, that people want to kill themselves over it. The availability of the perfect "solution" (a solution only attainable by the richest and luckiest) makes their current state untenable.

By telling these kids that these surgeries actually create some new person of the opposite sex, that "deadnaming" is "violence," et cetera, we encourage the idea that full sex transition IS possible, and in so doing give kids a standard to live up to they cannot POSSIBLY live up to. We tell them that the goal should be never having to say you're trans, full acceptance by every human being alive as the opposite sex, and then wonder why they're dissatisfied.

AbortionFairyGodmother,
As stated previously, gender reassignment should be treated on a case by case basis as should many other issues. Whatever path the individual takes, whether it be to have an operation or not should be decided in response to their individual needs. You cannot put everyone that has any issues whatsoever with themselves, their body etc under one umbrella.

This has given me things to think about. The whole subject is not one I'd given much thought to. I suppose my view was I didn't and don't see that it particularly concerned me.

I had never heard of "cis" and all the baggage that comes with it. I suspect I'm not in a minority there. I do wonder what the game plan of the more belligerent transactivists is;it doesn't seem an obvious route to gain acceptance.

culturallyboundgender.wordpress.com/2014/06/20/cisgender-cui-bono/

abortionfgm in what way is dead naming - the insistence of using a name which the individual no longer wishes to use not violence? Why should trans people not have the right not having to disclose their trans status always and everywhere, especially when it attracts so much hostility and ridicule?

I find the idea that it's those who say full acceptance is possible are the ones who are driving trans people to suicide rather than those who are keen to ensure that they'll never be accepted and are simply wrong and mentally ill rather bizarre.

That's not quite what Abortion said, Widow.

I thought she raised some interesting questions, namely:

• Why is transition considered the only solution for these kids?

• Why were there no large numbers of transpeople attempting suicide 20 or 100 years ago? What changed?

And this sentence was particularly insightful:

"By telling these kids that these surgeries actually create some new person of the opposite sex... we encourage the idea that full sex transition IS possible, and in so doing give kids a standard to live up to they cannot POSSIBLY live up to."

Holly - re "they they are separate issues entirely, one being that your wish is to have a specific body part removed in order to be happy where as the other is to wish to be a completely different gender in order to be happy"

... except that "to be a completely different gender" means changing one's body in the image of the other gender - i.e. chopping off body parts, whether it is breasts & vulva or penis & testicles.

"many transgender never actually have genitals removed"

Only 14% of of transwomen and 21% of transmen are not interested in having genital surgery. That is, a very large majority (86% of transwomen and 79% of transmen) want the surgery necessary to physically resemble the sex they feel they are.

The reason why only 33% of transpeople have had gender reassignment surgery in the US, for example, is simply that they can't afford to pay for $30,000 for it.

CoteDazur,
Instead of attempting to belittle my opinion, by using quotes from the internet, why don't you have try at sympathising with these individuals that feel it necessary to have elective major surgery? Again, you have not answered my very direct question. I can see that you clearly do not have the ability to separate having surgery from the other issues involved with gender reassignment, never mind, perhaps on day you will experience something that changes your archaic view on the matter. Maybe not. As for your statistic, I did not day that a greater percentage of transgender people had full surgery, I said many, so I think you've actually just backed up an opposing point there. The greater part of what abortion has said, seems to be pure speculation, misguided at the least. Transition is not the only option for 'these kids', it i one option, that is more readily available due to the change in views towards transgender individuals. Surely it is a good thing that people are more accepting, maybe you disagree, as this description does not cover yourself and abortion. As for whether there were gender based suicides 100 years ago, how on earth could you possibly know if there were or not? Unbelievable sweeping statement. Lastly, I can't imagine that children are just being offered a quick fix gender reassignment, fairy wand brandished by the surgeon as they tell them they will now be the perfect embodiment of the opposite sex. Being transgender is a long and arduous journey, not as simple as just removing a body part and tada, fixed, and transgender people are aware of that. They may have ideals in their mind of what they should be like as a specific gender, but si do many people. I find these views to be very damaging in a time when the world is changing and becoming more accepting of difference. Are there any other things you'd like to set the clock back on? Gay rights perhaps? Take your pick, I'm sure you have many in your repertoire. Anyway, as I feel I'm merely aiding you in having your soap box, I shall leave this as my exit post. Its been...interesting.

Holly - The quotes you have found belittling are from pro-trans sources (Advocate.com & and Vice News quoting American Medical Association) and presumably quote correct figures & assessments. I'm sorry that you felt belittled. That wasn't at all what I was doing. This is a conversation - you say something, I reply, then you reply.

" try at sympathising with these individuals that feel it necessary to have elective major surgery?"

I do sympathise. Just sincerely disagree that encouraging their body issues by boxing them into one gender stereotype or another, then cutting off their perfectly normal and functional body parts is the correct way to go about treating them.

And you are wrong: I do believe that we should accept everyone as they are, that the society should be accepting of everyone, be it someone who has amputated his left leg or his breasts in the need to drastically modify their body in a quest for happiness.

XStillLostAtTheStationX Like you I have found this conversation enlightening. I had not heard of cis before nor considered the topic from a feminist viewpoint.

Straight away I have been struck by the irony or the inability to match up how on the one hand the male to female transgender people can assert that they 'feel' female in yet act so violently towards other women. Most hate speech and death threats are dished out online by men, so either that violent disposition is biologically determined or socially constructed. Either way, it does not fit that male to female transgender people should be acting in that way.

If someone wants to surgically alter their body because they feel their biological sex doesn't marry up with their identity, are they not transexual rather than transgender?

riro exactly re the level of violence. I'm at odds with posters on here as I don't agree that the tendency of women to eschew violence is just learned social conditioning.

However if it is learned conditioning or an innate pre-requisite of being a woman then in either case the violence and hatred involved in embracing concepts like "die cis scum" is not compatible with "feeling like a woman"

I didn't find the link abortionfairy posted particularly useful. The idea of "cis" strikes me as absurd, not as a device thought up to help men.

why don't you have try at sympathising with these individuals that feel it necessary to have elective major surgery?

My problem is with the doctors involved. The individuals are victims in this case.

I certainly don't think ALL the differences between genders are social constructs, but so many are.

When I was an adolescent I didn't want to be a girl at all. I wanted to be a boy, with all the prospects and none of the fears (as I saw it). The changes associated with puberty frightened me, I didn't want breasts and I certainly didn't want periods (haven't much changed my mind there!). I wore boys style clothes when I could and was very happy to be mistaken for a boy, having been a tomboy when I was younger. But no one said anything about it, it seemed to be accepted one of those things some children go through, and as I grew up I got accustomed to my new body and discovered that plenty of other people fought against the stereotypes. My parents had a strong religious view of us as being special unique individuals created by god which I think probably also helped (and were both accepting of homosexuality which I suspect matters quite a lot too)

Wonderful post, nooka -- and I think you make a really important distinction between gender as a set of socially-imposed behaviours, which can feel (indeed ARE) coercive, and for biological women, oppressive.

I've worked with a few both pre & post-op mtf transexual people (I regard one as a good friend). So, through my friends I have a little bit of an insight into a sense of the complex biological/psychological match of gender & sex. What's interesting with 2 transexual people I know is that neither is stereotypically "feminine" or girly (that awful word). For neither was it about preferring trousers to wear or cars as toys. Quite the reverse, I gather.

But I think it's really worrying that in this whole move to be more "open" about gender, sex, and sexuality, we're actually putting people even MORE rigidly into boxes. My students (I'm an academic) think they're very liberal & open with "my best friends are gay" sort of thing, but still find the idea of a fluid identity and sexual preference, which may change across a lifetime, really challenging. Heck, they find the idea of a middle-aged woman who might know more than them, and have authority over them, to be challenging (Apparently doing lectures in which I tell them about things they haven't read is "talking down" to them!).

A lot of what I read about "transgender" children seems to me to be intolerance of homosexuality, or even just intolerance of children not conforming to really old-fashioned gender stereotypes. And I know we have limited information, but there's a general tendency to see a "sex change" as something liberating. It may be -- as I say, I know a couple of people who went through this, but it was a long, long process and really really NOT about preferring to climb trees or some such rubbish.

But it may not be. It may be that gender stereotypes are increasingly not fit for purpose.

But we knew that already (70s women's libber reporting for duty).

And I thought maybe it's easier for some parents to have a transgender kid than a gay kid. In the sense that it confirms rather than challenges gender norms

This ^^

Reddragon116, women aren't "chatty" any more than men are. That's a myth completely unfounded in reality.

When I was an adolescent I didn't want to be a girl at all. I wanted to be a boy, with all the prospects and none of the fears (as I saw it)

Every one's experience is valid but I find that an extraordinary statement. I was born in 1959 and I cannot recall ever being in such trepidation of being a woman. My school expected and encouraged girls to do well academically and go to university. I cannot recall being told or thinking I am limited in my prospects.

This is what I find irritating about this forum- the sheer negativity ; litanies of things women and girls aren't "allowed" to do; the decalarations up of things being seen as "feminine" (including on another thread , quite bizarrely,keeping a pet) folowed by the unquestioned statement that "society " finds such things unworthy.
Goodness knows what any 17/18 year old setting out in the world would make of this. Who needs men to put you down when so many women are ready to present the world in such a negative way.

To get back to the topic. There's a lot I don't know. I'm left feeling there must be a middle ground between extreme transactivists who think putting a dress on, saying you are a woman makes you a woman and the rad fem attitude of it's all socialised stereotying and transgender people are mentally ill.

I think much of our gender identity is socialised, there are some inate differences but the variation within the sex/ gender is so wide that I think a person should be able to accept the sex they are born in to and find a place within that rather than have mutilating surgery to become something they are not.
Young children don't understand that you can't magically become the other sex so asking them if they are a boy or girl is a bit meaningless, and precludes them being a boy but liking things supposed to be for girls like skirts and pink stuff.
Boys can't become girls by chopping off their penis and taking a few hormones any more than I can become a mermaid by removing my legs and sewing a fishes tail on.
You just end up as some sort of intersex.
If my son had said he wanted to be a girl I would have told him he's a boy but could like girly things and wear girly stuff if he wanted but that as adults boys and girls do a lot of the same things anyway and that there is nothing he can't do as a boy that he could do as a girl. We are people, you can be a person who likes wearing make up and swirly skirts, a person who likes playing football, a person who likes running or cycling. Women don't think in a special different way to men.
It should be possible to be yourself and sleep with who you want without taking artificial hormones and having surgery to fit some idealised stereotyped idea of what the opposite sex is.

StillLostAtTheStation, yeah, dang, women are so fucking negative about everrything!!!! :((((( Surely being killed and raped by men, earning a fraction of what men earn, and being ridiculously underrepresented in all positions of powers is nothing to make such a fuss about?!!?

Every one's experience is valid but I find that an extraordinary statement. I was born in 1959 and I cannot recall ever being in such trepidation of being a woman. My school expected and encouraged girls to do well academically and go to university. I cannot recall being told or thinking I am limited in my prospects.

I was born in 79 and also was never told or thought I was limited in my prospects, the message from mum and school was always "work hard and you can do anything" type thing, and right up until a year ago I would be arguing I've not been limited, but something, and I don't know what, changed inside me and I look back and see I was limited, and it was so subtle I didn't realise it, I was afraid to go out on my own at night and to walk through parks alone, made to wear a pretty dress(knee length) and smile nicely at family events or parties, keep legs crossed when wearing said dresses, when I wanted to do languages at gsces I was persuaded it wouldn't be useful, so chose fucking cookery instead, I had to remain pure while my brother encouraged to so his seeds and play the field, I'm the first girl in my family to go to college, it's just nursery nursing but it was a massive thing in my family and she was so so proud, I wanted to go to uni and become a teacher, but we couldn't afford it (due to my mums own limitations I guess)

So while I've always been told "I can do anything" and didn't feel limited, I got other subtle messages from society which I can see now affected the choices I had. My reason for thinking and changing my views are when dd asked me at 8 years old, if it doesn't matter what people look like and if it's what's on the inside that counts, why do people talk about ladies on TV and in newspapers in terms of what they are wearing or how pretty they are? And why when we go out do I tell her she can wear want she wants as long as she is happy and comfy but then spend hours doing my own hair and make up to look pretty and wear shoes that hurt me so it looks nice? An eight year old made me change my whole perceptive of life. So as much as I tell her it's who she is that matters more than anything, my actions and the messages she gets from society tell her another.

So everyone's experience is valid, unless it's not the same as yours still?