NUS and prostitution - confused...

[Ubik1]

They seem to haves passed a motion which holds anyone who thinks the Nordic model of managing prostitution is the preserve of right wing radical feminists.

I'm confused. I don't know much about sex work but I do know it is linked to trafficking of women and children and organised crime. I would be delighted if men were criminalised - but maybe I'm wrong?

Here's the motion but you might not be able to view it...

I don't know, I think there should be judgement-free support and advice for students who are selling sex with themselves (or doing webcam/chat etc where they themselves are the one providing the "service", or thinking about doing so, as opposed to pimps etc). And there should also be research conducted in such a way as people feel able to participate properly (Buffy will have a better way of wording this!). They shouldn't be stigmatised or feel ashamed or have assumptions made about their circumstances or feel they can't fully access higher education.

The part that troubles me is where that extends to saying it's ok for people to purchase access to other people's bodies, prohibiting any discussion about the impact that has on the liberation of women, POC, LGBT people, and other oppressed groups, and labelling anyone who expressed concern as "right-wing extremists supported by radical feminists" and refusing to listen to any dissenting voice on that basis.

YY, agree, judgement-free support, and all the rest you say.

It's the stigmatizing of people who disagree that bothers me.

Oddly, though, I really don't recognize it among students. Ok, my sample sizes are tiny and self selecting, but my impression is that most people recognise (historical) prostitution as a generally Bad Thing. It's possible some of them think, well, back in the day life was hard for women so naturally prostitution was hard too, and now things are better, but I don't think so.

Flapdoodle - I stand by what I said, I'm not confused. Most students are left wing, but the left has become very libertarian where it used to be liberal.

I have to say, the reported comments in that report from students doesn't indicate at all that their choice is a free one (in as much as any choice can be). They were extremely depressing as Vesuvia says.

I'm not sure how the judgement-free aspect (from the POV of university staff) would work in the case of the field I work with as there would almost certainly be contravention of suitability for practice as determined by an external professional body (which may or may not be the right thing)

What does contravention of suitability for practice mean, sorry?

If a student is studying a degree with professional qualification for practice (e.g. Midwifery), then there are requirements set by their professional body, which may be contravened if it is discovered that a student is undertaking sex work. If it were found to be so they would be subject to disciplinary proceedings which might mean they are withdrawn from their course. I don't know if this would happen for sure, but it's definitely a risk.

Requirements for their suitability for practice I mean.

Ah, I see, sorry.

That's really difficult.

It is very depressing.

But I'm glad they are trying to offer support to these young women. I

I don't agree there should be judgement free support at universities for sex workers.

Why pussyfoot around this? We are not talking about women who are trafficked/ imprisoned /or children but women who are at university; some of the most privileged women around. They are colluding with and supporting the sex industry which is bad for women and bad for society.

The vast majority of women do not work in the sex industry, ever, so I am unsympathetic to a privileged elite at university choosing to do so and getting upset if I say, in my opinion , that what they are doing is wrong.

As chopper says there would be other implications. There would be for my profession. I suppose the sex work is just a job lobby would say "but if it was all legal there wouldn't be a problem "

At present there would,since a conviction for soliciting/living off immoral earnings /may well preclude getting a practising certificate. Under the Nordic model I would think that the ethics commite may take the view the seller of sex is facilitating a crime even if not committing a crime herself.

I suppose the "make it all legal " position might get round those objections but it still carries no weight for me.

I agree with you Buffy.

If a male student were arrested for kerb-crawling I suspect it may well raise a fitness to practice case. I'm not directly involved in this though, so couldn't say for sure. It's certainly a case for them not being suitable to work with vulnerable people though IMO.

University students are not all privileged. Some are very vulnerable.

(Of course not all who are without privilege are vulnerable, and vice versa)

still, you could also be talking about women who have very little support - universities also include students who are estranged from their parents (or who are foster children, or who are mature students without a support system). They are not all financially privileged, and some of them will have been/are being abused, will have had/have drug problems, etc. etc.

It is not fair to expect individuals not to need support, and calling it 'colluding' is, frankly, appalling.

I agree that when we get to the level of a body like the NUS, you have a point, and if you meant just that, I think I take that point.

But I really disagree with you if your position is on support for individuals.

I'll save my condemnation for abusers thanks.

Amen to that.

Agreed

Jeanne I meant both. I condemn the buyers but I am not prepared to accept that women who are capable of earning a living by other means bear no responsibility for perpetuating the acceptability of buying women's bodies by choosing that work. No one is forcing Page 3 girls to pose topless.

What that makes me I'm not sure. I'm definitely not a radical feminist nor an evangelical Christian. But how you can hope for equality whilst the sex trade is tolerated seems a dream.

I really dislike that argument.

It's exactly the same principle as with DV, in my view. People will separate out 'good' and 'bad' victims and ask 'but why did she stay with him'.

I wouldn't judge a student who ended up in sex work, I'd just try to help them - whether or not they might have had other options when they initially got into it.

Totally agree jeanne. Those who ask for help should get it judgement-free. Those who don't are no less entitled to dignity, respect and advice should they need it. And neither should be criminalised.

And none of that means that we shouldn't be able to express concern for what permitting people by law to purchase access to the bodies of others means for women's liberation

God. The outcome of the study that the article mentions (linked above) has similar comments, but not in such detail.