Let older boys tell girls what turns them on... says man

[PuffinsAreFictitious]

Article here

Horrible gaslighty article about how older boys should tell girls in schools what they find attractive in females... to stop 'body shaming'. Because all girls really need to know is how best to attract a man. No mention of older girls going and telling younger boys that not being a sexist dickhead is a good way to attract a woman though.

This from a man who wrote a truly awful and deeply unscientific article a while back about how women who leave their children in daycare are damaging them because men don't leave their children, it's always women.

Obviously the best thing a girl can do is listen to older boys tell her how to win a man and then stay at home and look after the babies. Unsurprisingly, it's causing a bit of a stir.

sorry, that was following from turtle's post

quite errol - so she has to behave, speak and move in a particular way too. good-oh

I want a doctorate in patriarchial BS. I could look ever so fetching while I got it, too.

On the point about lesbians - apparently, these days, lesbians separate neatly into two categories, anyway. There are masculine lesbians, and there are lesbians who are attracted to masculine lesbians. It is all about the masculinity, you see. So I am sure the boys could give them plenty of advice too.

Yes, petula :(

I do wonder what we should be teaching girls about "body language" errol. Tilt your head to one side before saying (in a lovely voice) "Wow, you're so clever!"

Jeanne that has not always been my experience, I've known a few people who have believed themselves fundamentally repellent (ironically never the people who by their actions truly are repulsive), so let's just agree to differ there.

I am really interested in exploring/understanding some of the other points you raise. Of course you are very much in the right about unwanted attention, is that the natural result of what I suggested? If so I am very wrong there, apologies. However I posted that in consideration to the original articles ham fisted attempt in improving self image. Do you think it might be possible to simultaneously build up young people's self esteem while also combating entitlement?

Digging into it a bit deeper I think the central premise of the article is flawed, as when you get to the point of eating disorders, the issue becomes one of control, so the natural solution to that is to set about ways to encourage choice and agency amongst young women. Maybe even setting the debate around what is/isn't attractive can only serve to harm at that point?

Don't forget extensive work on deportment and eyelash fluttering.

I am far from a man hater, but I could manage it for this creep.

Sorry, I feel rude asking - dervel, I thought you were a male poster? Have I got you confused with someone else?

But, I think I didn't explain myself clearly (too angry about this). You can believe yourself to be physically repellent, and still know people will claim to find you attractive. It can actually be pretty horrible.

Now, if we could get teenagers (of both sexes) to believe they were attractive, or, better, to believe it didn't matter how they looked, that would be something else. But simply telling teenager girls 'some people will find you attractive' is no good.

I think, yes, setting up the debate can only serve to harm.

I think it depends what is included in the message. If it's something like 'we don't always like a really thin body but quite enjoy a more rounded one' with the idea that girls might not be as stressed about body image/being thin enough etc then why not.
But I would like a course done by older 'girls' explaining to boys what turns them on too! Being ready to listen to his gf as to what turns her on or not would be a good start!

Dervel, yes, I think they are two separate issues. I don't think striving for weight loss is primarily about sexual attractiveness.

It is about how the female body - its shape, dress, the space it occupies being seen as who someone is, what they think and what they want.

A further focus on the body and what it means to other exacerbates body issues

TheLastMan - it's not going to help girls' body image to have even more attention drawn their bodies.

If it's something like 'we don't always like a really thin body but quite enjoy a more rounded one' with the idea that girls might not be as stressed about body image/being thin enough etc then why not.

Well, because you're imagining that might be a helpful or comforting comment - or relevant in some way. But what it actually does, is imply that what 'we' think should matter to girls. Of course, individual girls are going to care what individual boys think - you can't ever stop that, that's how sexual attraction works - but this article isn't suggesting girls chat up boys (or vice versa) and end up talking about what's attractive about each other. It's suggesting this information just be volunteered, for girls to listen to.

Also, in that example - if you had a daughter who was very slim, how do you think she would feel? Or if your daughter didn't like the idea of her body being something for someone else to 'enjoy'?

Ugh I hate this. So the solution to girls feeling bad because society telling them to look a certain way is to say "don't worry, in some men's/boys' eyes even you are acceptable to look at", is it?

Funny, I thought the solution would be to STOP VALUING GIRLS AND WOMEN FIRST AND FOREMOST ON THEIR APPEARANCE FFS.

grah

Thelastman, why would a boy listen to his gf about what turns her on, in the sense of this article.

The point, if equivalent to this article, is that teenage boys should change their body shape, body language, voices and clothing to one that older girls find attractive before they have a girlfriend, so that they strive to be attractive to older girls in general.

This proposal, btw, rests on the premise that what is deemed an attractive female shape is, and will remain, pretty constant, no matter what boys tell girls.

The only reason anyone would think it'd be helpful for boys to tell girls that being 'more rounded' or fatter is attractive, is if that counteracts a more firmly established view that thinner is prettier.

So, what this man is actually saying is, no, I have no expectation society will stop telling girls that thin is pretty. But I think if a few boys counter that message, fat birds might do better. Thin girls will be fine, of course, because they already know they're pretty.

There are about 90 ways that is logically and morally flawed, aren't there?

Agree with Dervel too.
And a good point re lesbians.

My experience as a teenager/young woman is that it was actually nice and reassuring to hear from a man that actually he didn't quite like really thin body but preferred round ones. In his own words, he said he was finding (very) thin girls to bony and uncomfortable.
As a young adult and being (slightly overweight but a lot compare to media idea of 'perfection') hearing that was good because it told me that it didn't make me unattractive iyswim. And some men were attracted by 'rounder' women when others preferred thinner ones.

I think it also hit home because it was genuine and said by a man rather than a general 'everyone has different taste and there are people wo will find you attractive' which felt so disconnected to my reality.

Ok. I think I got the wrong end of the stick there.

Changing your body language, voice or clothing is NOT an acceptable message!
Neither for girls nor for boys!

"There are about 90 ways that is logically and morally flawed, aren't there?"

yes, i just keep thinking of more ways that this is objectionable

Lots of xpost too.

But I think it is different, an individual man telling you what he personally found attractive.

TBH, now (I'm 30), if a man tried to chat me up by telling me he found thin women 'bony and uncomfortable', I would think he sounded sexist, because it is rather objectifying. But I would realize he might be clumsily trying to say something nice.

But the crucial thing here is the genuine-ness.

I am a male, and not rude at all, helps to know where we are. I do not wish to exacerbate your fury over this either. Yes unwanted and inappropriate advances are always wrong, and a comprehensive understanding of boundaries must be encouraged, when as it stands it clearly isn't.

I can understand how the idea of men being custodians of women's self worth has you spitting needles. For my part and I think I may have failed abysmally at was to zero in on what I thought this scientist was trying to achieve and maybe find a common ground. Although as I said above I now think the whole premise is probably faulty now.

Why are we even attributing value to the thoughts of a third party on a female teenage body. So what if older boys say something soothing to younger girls.
As adults you need to be stronger than this. What if your socially acceptable looks are lost through acne, disease or accident. What then?

This mental toughness is developed in those teen years.

More importantly I knew at 12 and 13 that the body I had and would probably grow up to have would not measure up the media ideal. Some random 15 year old boy saying something would be an insult to my intelligence.

There are so many facets of what makes a person - kindness, intelligence, emotional smarts, and oh yeah looks which are transient.

If it's something like 'we don't always like a really thin body but quite enjoy a more rounded one

Yes, a young girl with few curves who happens to be "boy and uncomfortable" might feel differently then

Curvier women has been popular in the past . You just had young girls feeling disappointed they couldn't fill out their sweaters. It wouldn't be an improvement.

Oh, you're not exacerbating it, don't worry.

I just asked because, no, by definition, the experience of being a woman isn't your experience! So I was confused.

I know what you mean, that people can feel utterly ugly and (sadly) a lot of teenagers do. I just think that, for women, it coexists with knowing people will tell you you're sexually attractive.

I'm probably not explaining very well what I mean here.

I read the comments and now mt eyes are burning.

Yep, just what our daughters need, older boys telling them what they want so our girls can please them.

What does that even mean, uncomfortable? I'm not a mattress.