I can't get my head around the phrase "Transwomen are women".

[nikkinack]

Sorry for another thread on the topic, but I was looking at my local candidates and the only female candidate is for the Green party, and she has retweeted that phrase (with the addition "Transmen are men) a couple of times today.

It seems like doublethink to me, every time I try to unpick the statement I get all messed up in the process.

So, if transwomen are women, why call them transwomen? Surely just by defining them as transwomen you are saying they are different to women? Transwomen can't insist on women using the label cis and then lay claim to the standalone word 'woman'.

So transwomen are women, ciswomen are women. The word woman applies to people of either category, but they are still separate categories within the single word, which we can't describe. We are not the same, but to state 'Transwomen are women' is to insist that we are.

I don't know how anyone who makes this statement can square all of this. It hurts my head just trying to work out what they mean.

I think it's trying to say that when you use the word 'women' that includes both ciswomen and transwomen. That you aren't allowed to use the word 'women' if you mean just ciswomen.

I would interpret it to mean that transwomen are women, just like ciswomen are women. Rather than "transwomen are women but the rest of you are ciswomen and don't forget it"

I can follow that logic, but am left asking, what does 'woman' mean then?

I suppose, until we reach a genderless society, 'someone who chooses to identify by the term woman, in reference to the societal norms placed upon that gender identity'.

But then again, where does that leave those of us who identify as women and are biologically women, but do not conform to society's idea of a woman?

That's getting into dicey territory, I believe. Some people might say that 'woman' applies to any person who identifies as as a 'woman'. Others might say the term 'woman' only applies to those who have a vagina. Others might say it only applies to those who were born with a vagina.

You're caught up on the semantics, rather than the sentiment, which I think is just supposed to be a pretty basic message about identity and rights. Tweets like 'transwomen are women' are aimed at educating people who haven't considered, let alone accepted, that gender and sexuality are fluid and mutable. Imo.

So, if transwomen are women, why call them transwomen?

This is often the conundrum of discrimination. One simultaneously tries to define the group, in order to mobilise, educate, raise awareness, achieve formal rights and protections - but the end goal is the integration and acceptance that precludes the idea of a distinct identity. Does the group identity obstruct or prevent that ideal? I'm not sure.

Surely just by defining them as transwomen you are saying they are different to women?

Because I do think you've taken a wrong turn in thinking that 'women' must be a term that exists without qualification. Just as all people are people, with their myriad of characteristics, I'm not sure (given a wider and more thoughtful concept of woman) that a description or qualification such as trans really does critically undermine the statement in the way you think it does.

The whole debate trans/cis etc. is just exactly what a man who wants to be a woman would demand to be referred to as. It's all just very male in my opinion.

Oh sorry cross posts.

'Tweets like 'transwomen are women' are aimed at educating people who haven't considered, let alone accepted, that gender and sexuality are fluid and mutable.'

My sexuality and gender role are neither mutable nor fluid. I have no reason to believe that trans women have a fluid gender role, gender identity or sexuality either. People who are gender fluid have the gender identity... gender fluid!!

The point of education is to inform people and teach them analytical skills so they can make their own mind up, not so they will 'accept' your opinion.

And the vast majority of people are still using the word woman to refer to adult humans whose biological sex is female. So whether or not gender is fluid is totally irrelevant to their understanding of what the word woman means.

Because I do think you've taken a wrong turn in thinking that 'women' must be a term that exists without qualification.

Can you suggest what these qualifications might be?

What moomin says is my issue..

I'm biologically a woman, I was raised a girl/woman, I have no dysphoria over my female bits, but I'm not feminine, my interests span the whole range, my dress sense isn't at all womanly - the idea that my gender aligns with my sex makes no sense to me as I don't feel anything in my brain that tells me I'm a woman, or that I'm not a woman, I'm me.

I'm not happy with how society views me, I prefer trousers and robots, but I don't really want to be a man, if however I woke up tomorrow and discovered that my boobs had gone and I had a penis I wouldn't find this terrible (well, apart from the existence of magic!) - I don't hate or love my bits, they're just the bits I have.

What all this waffle says, is that I just don't understand how a transwoman knows, when I don't. I don't think I like being labelled CIS as I don't think it applies to me, I'd just like to stick to 'Woman' please, neither am I genderqueer, I'm just your average, human female.

Similarly I don't mind if a transwoman wants to call herself a woman, but the problem is that when you get to the law, it opens up a huge can of worms when anyone can simply say they are a woman, and gain access to services designed to keep vulnerable women safe.

What is a cis woman?

Methe, a person whose internal sense of gender identity matches the sex they were assigned at birth.

'someone who chooses to identify by the term woman, in reference to the societal norms placed upon that gender identity'

Can anyone define the word woman without using the word woman? In a way that includes transwomen?

Yes I'm caught up on the semantics. Semantics are important.

I've used the term ciswomen in my OP, but I would reject it as a label for my own identity.

Similarly I don't mind if a transwoman wants to call herself a woman, but the problem is that when you get to the law, it opens up a huge can of worms when anyone can simply say they are a woman, and gain access to services designed to keep vulnerable women safe.

This is my issue with it too. It's not a neutral statement - to widen the traditionally understood definition of "woman" - it has impacts on people born biologically female that are real and significant. Overlooking or minimising that for the sake of being inclusive with terminology seems wrong to me.

What are the bloody greeens playing at? Trying to appeal to the trendy modern genderqueer ('scuse me while I puke) 'youf' or have they just stopped being able to think??

Natalie Bennett said they were having a talk about this at a conference on Sunday, doesn't sound like it's done much good then.

My sexuality and gender role are neither mutable nor fluid.

Not for the individual, but the concept of gender itself.

Can you suggest what these qualifications might be?

No, because my experience doesn't prompt any, for me.

I just don't understand how a transwoman knows

I think all of the ideas here are problematic, because they are artefacts of the construct of gender itself. The law, too. It must simultaneously provide for those discriminated against on grounds of gender and permit discrimination on grounds of gender - e.g. access to services - while making room for new ideas of gender that contradict those embedded in the first two.

It's nonsense isn't it.

"This is my issue with it too. It's not a neutral statement - to widen the traditionally understood definition of "woman" - it has impacts on people born biologically female that are real and significant. Overlooking or minimising that for the sake of being inclusive with terminology seems wrong to me."

Caution has to be taken but imagine how it would feel to be a woman with a womans mind but trapped in a male body. I did research on this a few years ago and at the time literally every single study had supported that a transwomans brain was structured like a ciswomans brain.

So imagine if tomorrow you woke up with a male body etc, it would not make you a man because what5 is important is your mind and who you are not your physical appearance.

Noe as i said i am all for caution but i am also for showing these people the sympathy and respect they deserve along with helping them find peace be it through surgery or other means.

I think many of us would be termed genderqueer (hence the puke) as the modern word has it, because we are women who don't all behave according to the fluffy pink stereotype! Just one more stupid term in this whole transgender mix-up. Along with cis and 'female penises'.

If transwomen have not undergone the complete surgery then they are still physically males. However much they feel they conform to female stereotypes inside.

Rootypig, the concept of gender is not mutable or fluid. It is contested.

I don't think your posts are very comprehensible. I think it might be easier for people to understand what your opinion is if you made claims about gender role, gender identity, gender expression or gender presentation. Just making claims about 'gender' without explaining which concept you are referring to makes your statements very difficult to follow.

"every single study had supported that a transwomans brain was structured like a ciswomans brain."

As Buffy said somewhere else, Mary : citations please? How exactly is a "ciswoman's" brain structured? Have you heard of neuroplasticity or even individuality?

mary24go Can you direct me to the studies in question?

As far as I am aware, study after study has shown that there are no significant differences between male and female brains - therefore, of course male brains are structured like women's brains, whether they identify as trans or not.

'Caution has to be taken but imagine how it would feel to be a woman with a womans mind but trapped in a male body. I did research on this a few years ago and at the time literally every single study had supported that a transwomans brain was structured like a ciswomans brain.'

Completely untrue. Researchers can't even tell which is a man's brain and a woman's brain from brain structures in the first place, before you bring trans people into it.

'So imagine if tomorrow you woke up with a male body etc, it would not make you a man because what5 is important is your mind and who you are not your physical appearance'

No, I'd be a man, and it would not bother me at all.