The greens and prostitutes

[IceBeing]

Be gentle as I am new to thinking about this.

I found the Natalie Bennett's comments on decriminalising prostitution pretty persuasive - what am I missing?

She basically said that sex workers would like this policy (having contributed to it) and that research from other countries indicated it was the way forward.

Surely it's because they don't have to worry about the enjoyment of their partner

Is it such a terrible thing that a man might actually be able to relax and enjoy sex without worrying whether his partner will reach orgasm? When you have sex with a man, do you worry whether you'll be able to pleasure him sufficiently to reach orgasm?

Bumbledumb... what? Have you ever actually had sex with another person? From that post, it doesn't read like you have.

I have had sex with a number of people over the years, though not a lot. Most of my relationships have been long-term ones, and I have been married now for over 8 years.

Then what you said makes even less sense.

"You see I'm in favour of the broad principles of the Nordic model - prostitutes decriminalised, punters criminalised."

Yy Petula. That's why I get baffled when people cite eg having children taken into care as part of the Nordic model. That may happen in some countries who follow the broad principle above but I don't think it's intrinsic to the principles. I'm also certain that the children of prostitutes are taken into care in some cases in other countries, or abusive men are given inappropriate access to children and ex partners in some cases whether or not the mothers are prostitutes (cf the oft cited Petite Jasmine case).

I don't know if this is a "thing" in the UK but in the US I'm pretty sure such a legal situation would result in the prostitute "aiding and abetting a crime." It just makes no sense that I would be legal and the client would not.

Surely, if a person is encouraging, facilitating and supporting someone breaking the law, then they should be punished as well.

But I think that the philosophical essence of the Nordic model is exactly that.

Just as I imagine it's not a crime to sell a kidney, but it is a crime to buy one. It's not impossible to set things up that way.

I mean, "exactly that" only one party is criminalised and that's the buyer.

It is illegal to sell an organ in this country.

I don't think it's impossible. I'm not sure how the Nordic model works but is it okay for a prostitutes to advertise etc.

Is it? Thanks.

I don't know.

kim I take your point about some johns complaining about prostitutes being passive. I haven't read these punter websites (and don't really want to from the sounds of things!) though I'm aware they exist. I guess there are a range of things johns want.

I also accept that not everyone wants an emotional connection with their sexual partner, though many people do and I don't think it's a bad thing (it's certainly conducive to stable relationships and good parenting, though of course not everyone wants to or is able to reproduce sexually).

I've heard these accusations against Rachel Moran before and they're pretty suspicious. I mean apart from anything else, why would she lie about her experiences??? Surely not to sell books, since a Belle de Jour style account would be far more likely to get her a book deal and even a TV show. Do her critics think she just has some vendetta against the sex industry? In which case, why would she feel that way, unless she'd suffered as a result of it? Unless of course they think she's a pearl clutching prude... It would hardly be the first time feminists have been accused of this! These aspersions cast on her character just don't make sense to me (and really upset her, from what I've heard).

And this issue of why women don't buy sex. I'm very suspicious of evolutionist arguments here - as I said to mary a way up thread, attitudes towards innate sexual tendencies are historically and culturally variable. In many societies it is women who are believed to have dangerous and voracious sexual appetites that must be controlled, not men. Any difference in attitudes must therefore be a product of socialisation and our modern form of patriarchy, including this idea that women want emotional intimacy and men want anonymous sex. Male ideas about sex are desperately in need of change, since they so often lead to rape! Maybe the stereotypically female attitude should be what we work towards.

I know I've said this before, but thanks so much for engaging on this. It's really good of you.

In many societies it is women who are believed to have dangerous and voracious sexual appetites that must be controlled, not men.

This was true in England until relatively recently, and even more recently in Ireland. Women who were found to be sexually incontinent were locked up forever in institutions in England, right up until the 50's, and we are all very aware of what happened to women who found themselves pregnant and unmarried in Ireland. Look at the way women are treated in Saudi if they are found to be engaging in a relationship which might, in the outer bounds of reality, be seen as adulterous. The punishments for women behaving as sexual animals have always been harsh, and yet men still apparently 'need' the outlet of prostituted women. It makes zero sense.

This is an interesting article pointing out a couple of areas that could be improved in Sweden.

I imagine that the men want the woman to seem happy because they want to feel as though they're the best she ever had. The whole process is an ego boost. They feel they have the right to buy the act of happiness along with the body parts to complete this. It may nay them feel guilty if she clearly isn't enjoying it hence the negative feedback -how dare she remind him she isn't infatuated by him and is only there for the cash?

Does anyone know what proportion of prostitutes are there willingly (in the same sense that I willingly go to my job) as opposed to being coerced in some way (addiction, poverty, trafficking etc)?

I know I could do my own research, but does anyone have the stats to hand?

Kim... out of interest, do you have the same doubts about Rebecca Mott? She tells of similar, if not more awful experiences.

Jessica it's really difficult to measure, but there is this study if you want to read...

www.prostitutionresearch.com/pdf/Prostitutionin9Countries.pdf

"71% were physically assaulted in prostitution; 63% were raped; 89% of these respondents wanted to escape prostitution, but did not have other options for survival. A total of 75% had been homeless at some point in their lives; 68% met criteria for PTSD"

Thanks rosie. That rather suggests that even if the majority of men say they want a prostitute who is enjoying herself, the vast majority of the men either don't care, or don't stop and think whether she is actually there willingly as opposed to just pretending.

Indeed. Melissa Farley (who authored this paper) has been accused of focusing on highly marginalised groups of prostituted women and so skewing her results, particularly by sociologist Ronald Weitzer. It's so weird that a man would seek to underplay the harm perpetrated by men against women... why would he do that?!?!

Forgot the link

www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2014/aug/08/criminsalise-buying-not-selling-sex

It just makes no sense that I would be legal and the client would not.

I think it's a way of sidelining the unpalatable fact that some prostitution, although clearly not all, would cease to exist if the intelligent, resourceful, happy hooker wasn't selling. It's a bit unsisterly to say that.

The example of selling cigs and booze to children isn't really the same. There's no agonising about devising a system whereby children should still be able to acquire illegal fags and booze.

Still, I don't think I follow your point. Do you mean if there were no £300 an hour (or whatever!) "happy hookers" then that market "space" wouldn't be taken by other sellers of sex?