Feminism for women of colour...

[AnotherEpisode]

As a black woman, I quite often feel sidelined within feminism.

I don't feel feminism addresses the difficulties faced by women of colour in western societies and quite often I feel I am drawn to race issues over feminist issues because of this.

I absolutely have more difficulties in this society because of the colour of my skin than I do because of my sex.

I feel that the lack of understanding towards racism amongst feminist circles gives me a stance of one over the other in which racism usually wins, which is unfortunate really!

This article, although written in a strong, comical and sometimes rude tone, gives a good insight!

thegrio.com/2015/02/23/patricia-arquette-blacks-gays-white-women/

Not sure why I'm posting but I'm interested in a wider perspective especially people's thoughts on the article!

I think maybe think when you get behind a campaign or slogan how does affect different types of women.

I think women's mentoring needs to improve so that woc have the confidence to leave jobs which are treating them badly. I think mentoring and networking groups can be quite self selecting so I am not sure how that would work.

I don't know how you might do that though.

I think if we all keep asking questions and making suggestions maybe eventually we will get closer. But I am not sure it is a one and done solution. Otherwise we wouldn't need feminism it would have been sorted years ago.

Above all recognise feminism can't be one size fits all because the needs of women and the discrimination they face will differ according to their race, class, religious affiliation etc.

Don't assume you know how we are, what we think, what we need and that you speak for us. Ask.

Never expect women from a minority and/or disadvantaged group to set aside an issue that affects them because of their race, class or whatever in favour of what the white mainstream of feminism perceives to be the important goal of the moment. That's for negotiation, compromise and understanding, not an imposition from the many onto the few.

Ratbag I agree with everything you've said.

Rat bag I agree with you

I am pleased to see this thread, not that long ago I was accused of derailing a thread on here because I pointed out that the street harassment thread was problematic because it edited out ALL the white men.

It reinforced the same tropes that white women were at risk from hypersexualised black men and black women were not effected by street harassment.

Buggy could we do it through mumsnet rather than creating a new forum? Because I would be up for it.

Ahh sorry buffy auto correct

buffy I'd be interested in that.

theX which thread was that?

I keep going to post but then deleting my posts as I'm worried they might be offensive but, in the spirit of wanting to understand, can I ask how feminism is more inclusive without rendering itself immobile ?

I could probably explain better what I mean if I give an example of a discussion I had with a WOC in relation to FGM. My view is that although FGM is something that happens to black girls and women and that there are cultural contexts that I don't understand, the physical harm is such that I have to condemn the practice of it and speak out against it. I am however aware that in judging those who practice it that I have to be aware that there is a context and that there may be genuine belief held by those who practice it that there is greater harm done to a girl in terms of how she lives in society if she is uncut.

My friend's view is that western feminists can have an opinion but that they have no locus to campaign against it and should leave it to the groups affected to speak out. Whilst she's wholly against it, she believes that until the wider issues of how women are treated are addressed, concentration should be on ensuring that the cutting is done with pain relief and hygiene and that I should understand that the life of a girl who is uncut will be harsh - she will remain unmarried, bring shame on her family and will be a financial burden.

For me, I would have always considered that there are issues where considerations of race, whilst important, have to take second place to the safety of women. And I would, at the same time, have considered that there are instances where it is entirely the other way around. My question is how do we know which ones are which ? And how does the majority voice speak on behalf of the minority without speaking for the minority ?

I was waiting for someone to trott out FGM. What makes you think black women haven't been campaigning against FGM, also how much do you even know about the practice who it affects and how to end it.?

Just keep an open mind and perhaps share what you believe to be your insights and privilege where possible.

Keep listening too! x

Somebody signing a petition in Hampshire isn't going to make much of a difference, but dismantling patriarchy will. Giving women access to education, health care and job opportunities will.

Anti FGM campaigns have had negative consequences,www.theguardian.com/global-development-professionals-network/2014/apr/15/fgm-africa-criminalisation-ethiopia

I am pleased to see this thread, not that long ago I was accused of derailing a thread on here because I pointed out that the street harassment thread was problematic because it edited out ALL the white men.

I think this and related issues are an important aspect of the discussion. I remember a thread about To Kill a Mockingbird where some posters were objecting to the book being so well regarded because they said it perpetuated rape myths (women lying about rape in this instance). I grew up white in the 1950s in the American South, where I still live. I am one of those second wave feminists who came to feminism through being first influenced by Civil Rights Movement. In my culture especially, white feminists must be willing to consider their privilege in relationship to all people of color, including men.

I would speak out against fgm because it's wrong and unacceptable. I am not from that community but I think from what I have seen on TV programmes the mothers when confronted by their daughters in the UK have expressed regret. So I don't think keeping quiet helps. Why should little black girls not be protected? Why should they be mutilated for the sake of a future husband?

I cannot remember the name of the woman who fronted this show and spoke with her mother but she was incredibly upset that feminists and other advocates would not speak up.

I don't know - that's why I asked. I can only speak from my experience and what this thread is showing me is that I may well be speaking from a place of ignorance.

I have no problem with you pointing out that there may well be other things I need to take into consideration but please don't talk to me as if I'm not willing to consider the points of view of other posters. If I have been unknowingly disrespectful, tell me, don't attack me.

Patriarchy is wrong and unacceptable! FGM is a consequence of patriarchy, FGM happens for the same reason women are murdered by their partners, raped or harassed.

Coffee and Ratbag, agree with EVERYTHING you have both said!

Coffee and Ratbag, agree with EVERYTHING you have both said!

Blisstory I am sorry I was sharp, the way FGM/Forced Marriage is disussed is extremely problematic and it makes me angry.

There are things that all of us will consider so basic ahat to compromise on them is to undermine feminism entirely. All of us might have a different take on what those issues are (rape being permitted in marriage, abortion rights, evidence required to get a rape conviction, equal pay for equal work, equality of opportunity in education, to name a few). FGM will feature for many. It does for me.

I don't see that you should compromise what you believe and do for fear of offending or spurious cultural relativism, but listening so as to understand all the factors at play and why some women may think very differently from you is important.

An example of getting it wrong (which has happened to me a couple of times) might be assuming any woman from an African background has either undergone FGM or had some experiences related to it when in fact it is a localised and by no means widespread practice. Plenty of Africans find it as inexplicable and horrific as Europeans do.

Another FGM-related example: when it was debated on here and some posters advocated forced examinations of school girls to discover the extent of the problem and prevent it happening, it was interesting that those of us who might have had to undergo this if this had been in force when we were at school or who have daughters who might, tended to be strongly against forced examinations. We were given short shrift by white women for whom this was effectively a theoretical debate with no actual real-life consequences for them and their families.

I would support anti fgm too, particularly the work of the desert flower foundation.

I think if other feminist groups take the lead of groups like desert flower and there should be more dialogue between feminist organisations in general.

Isn't the main issue about fgm is that the child themselves must raise the complaint since no one else can examine the child without parental consent. I believe France have the girls looked at as part of school life.

ratbag why did you assume she had been cut? Also why where you talking about her vagina.?