Feminism for women of colour...

[AnotherEpisode]

As a black woman, I quite often feel sidelined within feminism.

I don't feel feminism addresses the difficulties faced by women of colour in western societies and quite often I feel I am drawn to race issues over feminist issues because of this.

I absolutely have more difficulties in this society because of the colour of my skin than I do because of my sex.

I feel that the lack of understanding towards racism amongst feminist circles gives me a stance of one over the other in which racism usually wins, which is unfortunate really!

This article, although written in a strong, comical and sometimes rude tone, gives a good insight!

thegrio.com/2015/02/23/patricia-arquette-blacks-gays-white-women/

Not sure why I'm posting but I'm interested in a wider perspective especially people's thoughts on the article!

I for one am learning a lot from this thread. I'm a white feminist and I've never really thought about feminism from a woc's perspective, not really. Patricia Arquettes back stage comments have highlighted a lot for me. Yesterday I was struggling to see an issue with at first but I am now getting it. It's been a bit of a revelation actually, I feel very ignorant.
Re: feeling a bit scared to engage on the topic incase of getting the wrong end of the stick etc. I very much feel like this. Up until this post I have been reading the comments on various articles about Arquettes words and trying to understand before commenting. Had I commented immediately I would have got it very wrong.

The absence of the conversation is worse than a badly articulated sentence. As a dreadful typist I will always cut people slack for less than perfect prose

I get this but after the criticism that Arquette has received for her words it scares me even more to open my mouth. I worry that that could be me. I am mortified to realise this. I think I need to do more listening before any more speaking.

I hear you but Arquette gave a speech . Had she stated it on a forum like this one she could have responded and the conversation could have developed organically.

I'm white and a feminist (I'm no academic, so excuse me if my wording is clumsy here).

It doesn't surprise me at all that black women feel sidelined by the feminist movement. In my experience, they are sidelined by a lot of the movements that should be empowering and supporting their cause (left wing political parties, for example), and feminism is no exception. I have been in many situations where their voices were silenced and I have witnessed black women being talked down to, criticised, made to feel they have overstepped for raising colour/race/ethnicity as an issue that impacts on their lives with the same force as their gender.

In my last work place, there were a high number of female employees of all races at entry level up to about supervisory/middle manager level, then at senior manager level the women dwindled and the black and Asian women completely disappeared. It was a huge issue, but was never addressed. Even the most feminist, supposedly 'aware' white men and women in positions of power were oblivious, really, and uncomfortable if it was ever so much as hinted at, let alone challenge. It was the elephant in the room, and another example of how people are still comfortable with (and get away with) developing, recruiting and promoting staff in their own image - white women, as well as white men.

For me the ultimate check is to imagine how I would want a person with male privilege to respond to me, and try and stick as closely to those rules as possible when it comes to white privilege

Yep. This is how I try to approach it. I have interesting conversations with DH (black) about this. We have learned a lot from each other.

It's just awkward in real life though. How do you ask a woman in a job that you think is potentially beneath them why they are in that job and what they need to go further. It's rude and presumptuous even as words on a page.

I was close to one office manager at a previous job. We never spoke about why she was in the role but I knew she was bored and unhappy but accepted she would not leave. However we spoke at length about gcse and a level options for her daughter and university applications and internships etc. That was the information she wanted and I was more than happy to provide it. I left that job six years ago. We still meet up and she is still there and not happy but she has childcare costs and doesn't want to risk change. I am not sure what specifically feminism can do for her as a woc but I know she wanted more for her daughter.

I'm white so I doubt how much I can add to the conversation but one thing I will do is listen to what people are telling me about their lives.

If someone tells me that race rather than gender is the main influence on their status I will not question it, because I figure you've had pretty much your entire life to figure that out. I would like for there to be common ground for us to work towards, but I fully believe people of colour who say they have other bigger issues that they will prioritise.

This is how I wish people with male privilege would act towards me - I hope that I can acknowledge my own privilege enough to view the barriers that other people face.

However there is an obviously disproportionately high number of men, and disproportionately few people of colour, in particular women of colour. It's obvious to see how racism (and sexism but to a lesser degree) is working here

Is it disporportionate?

Men and women should be 50-50 in the population, but the proportion of white to other ethnical backgrounds may be very different and may depend on the region, etc. In the same way that among the white group, there will be a higher percentage of the indigenous white groups. And the same for different black ethnicities.

I work in a science field and thinking back, most non-white students and staff did come from outside the UK. Now working in Portugal, I suspect we do have a better local representation of the non-white communities than we did in the UK. Could this be because the non-white communities do feel in the UK that they have to go for certain jobs. Is science like arts in that respect?

Is it disproportionate?

Yes!

There are plenty of examples in this thread of people sharing thier individual experiences of this.

Unless you believe people are playing the 'race card' whatever that may be OR you believe that your understanding of people's experiences is somehow more insightful and overrides thier own, I'm not sure why it seems a challenge to take posters words at face value.

Thanks for the thread, OP.

Through experience, I have decided that trying to convince people that racism plays a part in the life of EVERY person of colour in 2015 is pointless.

It seems a huge task for someone to own up to thier privilege regardless of whether they can do anything about it, which they often can't.

If I wanted a single thing to change with regards to modern day racism, it would be for people to recognise thier privileges. And thats it!

Bigots do not affect me. Racist name calling as seen all over the internet has no impact on my life.

A society run by people who have such a huge privilege but don't recognise it is what maintais the status quo.

It is the thing that means my children will have to work twice as hard in class to be accepted as the brightest although they clearly are!

It is the thing that stops me being assertive but instead aggressive.

It is the thing that effects the self confidence of so many woc in western societies.

Theres so much more but given the choice, I'm not so sure that I prefer racism wrapped up tightly with cultural imperialism over overt bigotry!

I come to a feminist board as I believe the oppressed are more likey to see and LISTEN to those that face more oppression.

Thank you to those that have been able to just LISTEN!

I live in London and it is disproportionate

If you go to bpp or any place where you might do financial qualifications plenty of women and poc. They are not failing their exams on mass. So where are they now they ought to be senior in the finance field .

Some people I studied with went into family businesses maybe one or two the rest as far as I know are still working.

When I worked in a really large firm their diversity and inclusivity was mainly about having prayer rooms and out reach mentor schemes at a few local schools. Women's networking was on presentation at the graduate level. Maybe higher up the food chain there were different conversations going on.

Well said episode.

I am trying to give clear examples because I want there to a record somewhere that we have tried to explain.

I said it before on another thread. If you are not racist which most people are not why do you invest so much time and emotional energy telling people who are highlighting racism that it isn't there. Seriously how does it improve your day. It doesn't make you less racist and it doesn't make the world a better place.

Some people will listen. Some will not. My white dp listens and therefore he is my ally. Everyone else I just work around

Can I ask how much is it that people perceive themselves to be under the microscope or expected to be in certain ways, or to represent their group, and how much is other people actually doing it?

I think what I'm saying is that I suspect that being a female nowadays probably plays a bigger role than race. But could be wrong.

I'd like to ask the white posters on this thread how they would feel if, in the context of a debate about sexism and feminism, a man said to them:

Can I ask how much is it that women perceive themselves to be under the microscope or expected to be in certain ways, or to represent their sex, and how much is other people actually doing it?

I think what I'm saying is that I suspect that being an individual nowadays probably plays a bigger role than sex. But could be wrong.

We are still at the stage of white people doubting whether racial prejudice is a significant factor in our lives. Based on no concrete factual evidence whatsoever. I. Give. Up.

It exists, I'm disappointed to say it still exists.

I read a tv review of Indian summers in grazia recently and the (white, male) reviewer made no mention of any of the Asian actors in it.

It's a bit more insidious and hidden than being called a fucking paki in the street (has actually happened to me) but it's there nonetheless.

For the poster earlier who asked about Cumberbatch and terminology, I think it is a matter of using the terms other people are comfortable with.

The OP used the term WOC and she was talking about a white American discussing the US. So I'm using it on this thread.

I wouldn't use it in most situations in everyday life in the UK. I wouldn't use it if I just meant Black British people (not specific enough) or all racism where I live (excludes groups like the Polish) or if I was talking about the whole world (wrong focus).

I suppose it is like using British/English/Scottish. You use the phrase chosen by the other person that they are happy with.

Thank you for the thread, so much food for thought. I would agree and echo what episode and coffee have said.

I am always Chinese first, a woman second: not necessarily because I want to define myself like that, but because that's how I feel I am perceived. A life time of people's reactions and expectations force me to follow a stereotype (if I let them) which I have to either defend or am expected to uphold.

Thanks for the discussion.

I agree. It's important to be able to self define.

If asked I say I'm British Asian or British Indian.

I am very grateful to you for starting this thread. I'm white, so sitting here listening. But I'd just like to say that I am doing my best to do so (and yes, the "what would that comment look like if you replaced 'race' with 'sex'?" question had occurred to me, and some white posters here who should know better have not exactly shown themselves in their best light - I know that coming from a position of white privilege I do not know what it feels like, so if those comments came across as jarring to me, from my background, I hope I won't be assuming too much to say that I can guess they will have come across as spectacularly dim at best and outright offensive at worst to a woc).

Thank you, Buffy.

But that's the point most people are not racist in the sense of throwing bricks through people's windows. But we all falter sometimes. I imagine that young woman on the outpatient ward assumed that I am anti Muslim when I was a bit of a daft student. I didn't say anything or do anything I just stared like an idiot.

But the cumulative effect of benigh idiots like me and more malign individuals do shape the way you perceive yourself and role in the world.

I think I am me first then black then female because that is how I am treated.

And Lurcio.

On the thread about Big Hero Six, I posted a link to a video. That includes discussion of race and unconscious bias, and some mention of what you can do to reduce it.

Sorry I can't relink on this thread, but am on phone. Maybe someone else would like to?