Anti-Transgendered thread in Chat

[countessmarkyabitch]

Started off as a vague question about what makes you feel like a woman, lots of people started mentioning transwomen, naturally. Has now turned into some posters stating that transwomen are just men and shouldn't be allowed use female things like toilets and rape crisis, pretty much anything.

I find this really offensive and have stopped engaging. My personal feminism encompasses women who were born in male bodies, and supports their struggle to be recognised as women. I also think they need the protection and help of feminists as a particularly at risk group.

Is this an unusual stance? Does anyone agree with me?

Some do, Cow, yes.

What's really twisted about the whole thing is that in TERF/WERT "debates" it becomes clear that these transwomen absolutely despise women, they hate them with every fibre of their being. They're becoming women partially because they feel they can do it 'better' - they can't find the perfect woman to fit their misogynistic mould so they become it instead. It is seriously fucked up.

I'm tired of taking the moral high ground and being compassionate. Transpeople use the term "TERF" as an insult, because they know women are socialised to balk at being called anything but nice and compliant.

TERF means "trans exclusionary radical feminist" it's not actually anything that insulting.

Oh is wert already a thing? I didn't know
Yes that's it, they'd despise me and the way I dress most of the time. As you say, it's seriously fucked up. It must be horrible to live with so much hate

No, I used it because it's apt :) It will be part of my vernacular.

Cool

I'm unperturbed by terf. Incidentally, Allison Woolbert, who runs the terf tracker website, is a convicted child rapist, so I'm not massively interested in her ideas about what is proper behaviour.

On a slight tangent here, but it is relevant.

I have a particular horror at women blindly swallowing what men tell them and walking trustfully to their doom - it's happened to us so much throughout history and brought so much suffering.

Men look out for themselves. They don't build shelters for women or make any great effort to get women into the workplace - it's all women doing that.
Women are expected to solve all their own problems and any problems men happen to dictate they should be concerned about.

Including trans issues.

I am not the mummy of the world. I am looking out for me and my fellow women - people born with vaginas.

As soon as men start giving a shit about me, I'll give a shit about them. But they will not distract me with their whining.

The thing about it all is, I have no wish to harm anyone who wants to wear whatever clothes they like. If you're a person with a penis who wants to wear a dress, knock yourself out. I'm not stopping you.

But arrogantly stride across my life and history and shit on it and I won't be too happy, naturally.

Do we need to be saying that terf itself as a concept is not wearing any clothes? Is that possible?

Not as a concept, as a putdown

I'm not sure what you mean, Cow.

I mean that if people just say so fucking what yes I am a terf, does it lose its power? It only works if people are afraid of being labelled as a terf (obviously death threats are frightening whatever)

Sorry I've not thought it through have I, there are actually some real consequences associated with terf like no-platforming and endless harassment

No, I do think you have a point. TERF is used as a threat, it threatens women's need to be liked and not to offend anyone.

Yet, at the same time WERTs feel no shame at issuing rape threats and death threats. But we're supposed to forgive them because they're such downtrodden victims.

I think I would object to being called a TERF the, just like I object to being called a CIS woman, because I don't actively seek to exclude anyone from anything for their stated gender, race, viewpoints etc. I only exclude people from my life if they behave badly towards me.

I personally would not be bothered about being on a ward with men or trans, being examined by a male or trans doctor etc, but I have never really been physically abused so that is easy for me to say. I don't think safe spaces for women that have is exclusionary really.

They aren't men who put on a dress. I'm glad that you have a blinkered vision with regards to the issues in the world and can only see one single group of people's issues. Do you care about the plight of black women or severely impoverished women, or is yours a feminism that excludes all intersectionality?

I detest WERTs. I detest TERFs. I detest any feminism that puts their needs above another group of oppressed people.

Trans women are not doing it for the lols. They don't open themselves up to such horrific violence for fun. They aren't male infiltrators, male spies. They aren't doing it to be our saviours, telling us how to be women. They are women who were born with a penis and balls.

Yes, there are some who take a very questionable approach towards feminism and women, and I fundamentally disagree with that. I am not defending WERTs. But I am certainly not defending TERFs.

I would consider myself a radical feminist at times, but for me that includes ALL women - whether born with a vagina or not. We are all oppressed by the same group, so why not fight that group together?

Because if you can be a woman without having a vagina and without being raised as a woman then "woman" is a meaningless term.

There is a lot of focus on upbringing. Not everybody views their childhood as fundamental to their identity. I would view my formative years as my twenties. Why can't a trans woman have her formative years as a woman at that age too?

And what about those post-surgery trans women? What about intersex people?

Is man a meaningless term for those without penises?

I've already discussed all this upthread cigar.

The basic gist of it is, a woman is not a person in a dress. It's just not. We have a society where children are divided and treated differently from day one based on their genitals. If you deny that then you're just being totally obtuse.

The problem is that if no one can describe what feeling like a woman feels like then being a trans woman does just seem to be nothing more than adopting the external trappings that are associated with being female in our society eg. wearing clothing that is aimed at women.

It's actually the mainstream contention of many trans writers that biological sex is not binary and does not exist. It is also the mainstream contention that trans women have always been women, grew up as women and experienced girlhood. I cannot resolve any of these points into a coherent position personally.

That's because they make no sense Catotanca.

Indeed, they do make no sense. To deny the experience of half the world's population who are discriminated against, oppressed, assaulted, and often murdered because of their biology is delusional and offensive.

I can insist that there is no such thing as the Atlantic Ocean - it would certainly suit me for there not to be, but just insisting doesn't make it so. (Probably a bad analogy)

It isn't just putting on clothes though, is it? Otherwise drag queens (which I accept can be an extremely misogynistic culture) would be trans women.

By denying trans women the right to be women, you are denying a lot of people their very existence and identity, because your experience supposedly trumps others. Your view of the world is not the only one that matters and to effective at campaigning for genuine change, you have to accept that fact.

Gender is not binary. My non-binary DP is a living testament to that in my everyday life. You may wish for it not to exist but you cannot deny the fact that it currently does, and has an incredibly powerful impact on almost everyone's lives.

Cigars, I have absolutely no problem with the majority of trans women who are just trying to peacefully get on with their lives, and have had complex struggles that I will never have. No issue at all. Also no issue with transvestites. Live and let live.

I do have an issue with a vocal, aggressive and increasingly influential small group of trans activists who are trying to shut down discussion that includes aspects of women's biology because it excludes them, and to fight for the right of male bodied trans women to use women only space, particularly spaces which should be safe spaces needed by biological women because they are physically different and have had different experiences to male bodied trans women.