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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Asking for it

98 replies

FuckOffGroundhog · 08/02/2015 09:06

Men are more likely to be attacked in general than women. Alcohol will frequently have been in use.

Shall we just start a campaign called "don't ask for it" that blames male victims of muggings and attacks. The posters can say if you were walking around drunk while holding money you were pretty much asking to be robbed, also your attacker was drunk too. So maybe you forced them to take your money!

I'm pretty sure once we blame male victims it would take about 5 seconds to click in to place for men that drunk women don't ask for rape.

OP posts:
Dotheyfloat · 08/02/2015 18:04

"andiewithanie Sun 08-Feb-15 16:51:59

"Some people call that statement a 'silencing tactic', however it's more commonly known as logical reasoning."

actually it's called an anecdotal fallacy.

1.bp.blogspot.com/-hAOwv3o-sQw/UB7S2GFcltI/AAAAAAAAATM/ZeL_sKUo1QM/s1600/90i.jpg

now fuck off"

That the burden of proof lay with the claimant, i.e. the OP, is an anecdotal fallacy?

The harder I think that though the harder it becomes for me not to laugh. Sorry.

"TwiceForkedLightningTree Sun 08-Feb-15 17:07:36
And no, Dotheyfloat, we find you irritating because you clearly think you are so superior and do not need to listen to what the women who are being affected by these issues tell you."

The OP implies that men aren't blamed for their own actions with regards to street crime/assault, e.g. "walking around drunk while holding money". I've simply ask for the evidence that is true. For this audacity I am judged to be thinking of myself as "superior"? Please.

And by some bizarre thought process people seem to construe that as an attack on women. I suspect the responses are framed within that context because they know the OP is based on an unsound and probably nonsensical premise, so attempt to shift the debate to 'safe ground'. Maybe there is a mountain of data that indicates that if a man gets shitfaced, staggers around with a fistful of money, and then gets mugged he is not told he was an idiot who put himself in danger and that he may also regard himself as a blameless victim. For the OPs idea to work this would have to be the clear case - that men are treated differently when it comes to being the victim of a specific type of crime under a specific set of circumstances.

"You do know that science starts with experience? All it is is the condensed
experience of thousands. Our experience here is rather more relevant than yours. Sadly."

You're conflating the scientific method with a collection of anecdotes. Science starts with a hypothesis which is then tested via controlled study until such time it is proven or disproven. This can eventually provide evidence to support a theory. No amount of anecdote and counter-anecdote can do that.

The OP suggests that men are not blamed for careless behaviour that results in them being the victims of street crime. Is "our experience" relevant to that scenario, i.e. being around a man who was "walking around drunk while holding money", got mugged, and you then saw how differently they were treated to women with regards to 'victim-blaming'? Would the police say nothing negative of the victim's actions, as they might do if the victim were a women rather than a man? Not even a 'I hope you wont do that again', i.e. don't walk around drunk 'asking' for someone to grab your visible cash?

I have simply asked for the evidence, not anecdote, that would help answer these questions.

And my God, hasn't that caused the tears to flow.

I have no objection in principle to the idea of telling men they at fault for this specific type of scenario, but it must first be established that this doesn't already happen. If it does then such a campaign is rendered pointless.

grimbletart · 08/02/2015 18:13

So why provide an anecdote from 2002 yourself?

FuckOffGroundhog · 08/02/2015 18:19

I think this may actually be the dumbest mra we've had. And that says a LOT.

OP posts:
PuffinsAreFictitious · 08/02/2015 18:22

It sure does.

PetulaGordino · 08/02/2015 18:24

I've found his frothing rather amusing. Shame it's all derailing

grimbletart · 08/02/2015 18:27

It does pass a boring Sunday afternoon though…normally it's pub closing time or school holidays when this sort of derailing happens.

andiewithanie · 08/02/2015 18:33

news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/4453820.stm

now, her assertion that women are routinely blamed has evidential support. but her other assertion, which is quite reasonably based upon an absence of evidence (evidence, here, being that men are routinely blamed), and you're asking her to to do what, exactly, prove the absence of evidence?

i think you'd benefit from introductory course in formal logic

LurcioAgain · 08/02/2015 18:35

Given that I used to teach courses on soundness and completeness for 1st order logic, and on Godel's theorem, and have published papers on philosophical logic and the philosophy of natural language, I think I can safely say from a position of some authority that our new pal would not recognise a logical argument if it got up and bit him on the arse. But I don't suppose he'll take any notice of me saying that, me being a woman n'all.

FuckOffGroundhog · 08/02/2015 18:36

What Andie you say unicorns don't exist?

I want evidence! Because logic!

OP posts:
andiewithanie · 08/02/2015 18:38

he really is like several massive idiots crammed into one average sized idiot's body

grimbletart · 08/02/2015 18:40

A bit like a matryoshka doll but in reverse…..

FuckOffGroundhog · 08/02/2015 18:44

It just amazes me that I'm not allowed to phrase a question to women with the idea that we have a shared basic understanding to start with.

I have to prove to one person something that we all know to be common knowledge among women because he really does think it doesn't count until a man says it.

Sorry floater but it's remedial feminism and if you are truly interested go do some research and come back later. Educating the masses isn't my job. I haven't got the time or the inclination.

It's there with sandwiches in the realm of shit I don't do

OP posts:
andiewithanie · 08/02/2015 18:47

as ever: male = logical; female = feelz and irrationality

it's a good job he has a metric fuckton of male socialisation/priv to protect that ego of his, otherwise he'd probably die of embarrassment at his own stupidity

PuffinsAreFictitious · 08/02/2015 18:53

Groundhog.... you are very welcome to frame a question/thread based on an assumption of shared experience/knowledge. Sorry this has been derailed by a simpleton who believes his big fat male ego and privilege trumps that shared experience.

BuffytheThunderLizard · 08/02/2015 18:57

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

BuffytheThunderLizard · 08/02/2015 19:01

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

Dotheyfloat · 08/02/2015 19:07

grimbletart Sun 08-Feb-15 18:13:29

"So why provide an anecdote from 2002 yourself?"

Fair question. The OP didn't offer up anything of substance, so I did not feel compelled to go digging for anything deep myself. As I've said, it not up to me to prove the OP's point.

andiewithanie Sun 08-Feb-15 18:33:54

"news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/4453820.stm

now, her assertion that women are routinely blamed has evidential support. but her other assertion, which is quite reasonably based upon an absence of evidence (evidence, here, being that men are routinely blamed), and you're asking her to to do what, exactly, prove the absence of evidence?

i think you'd benefit from introductory course in formal logic"

Until such a survey/study is found, or conducted, whether the OPs campaign will be of any use is unknown. Maybe you think undertaking a campaign that may be almost useless is a good idea.

LurcioAgain Sun 08-Feb-15 18:35:39

"Given that I used to teach courses on soundness and completeness for 1st order logic, and on Godel's theorem, and have published papers on philosophical logic and the philosophy of natural language, I think I can safely say from a position of some authority that our new pal would not recognise a logical argument if it got up and bit him on the arse. But I don't suppose he'll take any notice of me saying that, me being a woman n'all."

On the contrary, I'm admiring your fine appeal to authority.

FuckOffGroundhog · 08/02/2015 19:13

Fair question. The OP didn't offer up anything of substance, so I did not feel compelled to go digging for anything deep myself. As I've said, it not up to me to prove the OP's point.

I haven't got to prove a known point. This is what you are missing. It is well known to half the population and to most of the other half who haven't got their head up their arses or are hanging off the side of a building dressed as Spiderman wondering they can't see their kids

It's like if you as a man started a thread and it you make the assertion that most birds fly,... You would expect to be believed because everyone has seen that most birds are capable of flight.

So if someone shouted "prove that most birds fly" would you then actually give enough of a fuck to prove the fact to someone who you believe to be at best a troll or at worst an idiot that birds do in fact fly?

Or would you just think they should probably get out of their parent's basement and look outside?

OP posts:
andiewithanie · 08/02/2015 19:35

actually starting to feel embarrassed on his behalf :/

scallopsrgreat · 08/02/2015 20:17

I think I work with Dotheyfloat . My guy's all 'logical reasoning' too. And I suppose what he says would contain some kind of logic, if we were starting with the premise that he were Master of the Universe.

AKnickerfulOfMenace · 08/02/2015 20:26

Scallops, do you work with my ex?I'm sorry if you do. He's a massive wankbadger.

Bloody loving some of the replies here, sisters.

AKnickerfulOfMenace · 08/02/2015 20:29

We find you irritating because you are irritating. I'm assuming that's your goal here, so you must be very proud of your afternoon's "work"

scallopsrgreat · 08/02/2015 20:40

I can understand why he's your ex Menace Grin.

Bifauxnen · 08/02/2015 20:54

Ostriches and penguin can't fly. So I win and you're all dumb and your points are invalid. Logic and reason!

(I think I've got the hang of it. I've read many, many, many post by men who litter their contributions with 'logic and reason' like it's a nervous tic, yet remain impervious to both. I think I've got the formula right)

PuffinsAreFictitious · 08/02/2015 21:44

Bif, that reminds me of the poem Cottleston Pie.

In fact, Winnie the Pooh is probably above this douche's logical level.