Can you talk to me about marriage?

[NotTheFarmersWife]

I hope no-one minds me posting here. I read a lot, but rarely post in FWR cos the high calibre of poster makes me feel a bit fick but I have no remotely feminist-minded friends or family and I'm winding myself up something chronic with no-one to talk to about this. I thought maybe you smart bunch could help me make sense of my own mind.

DP and I are after setting up a smallholding. We can't afford the outrageous cost of housing in SE, but can't move out of SE because of family etc. So we thought it'd be nice to get a little bit of land, and keep chickens and pigs and what have you. Try for a bit of self-sufficiency. But here's the catch - it's DPs money that will be used to buy the land and animals etc to start with. I don't have a penny to my name and I'm not currently working - and nor will I be, if we go ahead with this - well, I'll be working harder than I ever have before I'm sure - but not for a salary... I would be so very fucked if something happened to him, like a stroke, or a younger woman, you know, the usual suspects.

So I thought, well, we should get married. That would protect me, further down the line, if I'm out of the workplace for fifteen years and then suddenly it all goes tits up and he's gone and whatever else. (I think, anyway?)

But I'm really conflicted about getting married. Part of me doesn't want to, because it's an outdated patriarchal institution, ownership of women, all that jazz. Part of me doesn't want to because DP isn't particularly bothered about getting married. He has said he's quite happy to get married if I want to, but to him it doesn't really mean anything. Hilariously, it doesn't mean a great deal to me in terms of commitment, my parents, grandparents, friends parents etc, all divorced - but I can't stop thinking about that old trope that men who aren't interested in marriage actually are not interested in marrying you, you know? And if I'm completely honest (and I try not to be, when it comes to this sort of thing!), part of me is pretty gutted, actually, that I've borne children for two men but neither has wanted to marry me. Which is possibly the most ridiculous bit I know but hey, social conditioning eh? But anyway the upshot of it all is that it makes me feel hurt and defensive and kind of like, well fuck it I didn't want to get married anyway. I don't know what getting married actually entails but I don't think I can do it when I feel like it's just a bit of a farce on our part. But I know I can't give up any and all paid employment outside of the home if I'm not going to have any real claim to this farm we intend to build.

So maybe I'd be better off going back to "proper" work instead? I don't have great earning potential, I buggered up my education in a big way, and have already taken several years out to raise kids, but I'm not yet thirty and after a few years it should be enough to make some sort of useful contribution to the household, and then if the relationship does flounder, I'm in a much better position to build a single life on.

I have tried to talk to DP but he just says we can do whatever I want/whatever will make me happy, and that I can't keep planning a future without him (I'm not trying to do that, but having had one supposedly-forever relationship crumble, I need to know I'm going to be ok if something does go wrong). My mum said that if I get married I should make sure my hair looks nice and not wear jeans to the registry office. (See what I'm up against) I just don't know what to do. TBH, I'm not even sure what posting here is going to achieve. My sincere apologies if you got all the way through just to realise it was a self-indulgent whinge. I just need to go and get a real job don't I? Or is there some other way? Am I just being a massive twat? (You are welcome to tell me I'm being a massive twat but please do it nicely because I am feeling really fragile generally at the moment and this is a particularly sensitive subject for me)

GroundHog I wondered about something like that. I'm not sure I would handle it well to be his employee though. I'm ridiculously touchy anyway and I think it could be a really dodgy dynamic to introduce to our relationship.

No we don't have anything in place at all as it stands. We both have good relationships with our own and each others parents, which is reassuring, but in a scenario where legal next of kin matters then things are going to be fraught anyway aren't they. I would really like that sorted, although that is one of the easier ones to sort without marriage anyway. And god forbid anything happen to my parents, I do not want my little brother to be my next of kin, as much as I love him! I have literally nothing and I think his stuff would pass to our daughter wouldn't it, with no will in place?

Yes Petula, if we didn't marry we would have to think about some sort of alternative like that. I imagine we will just get married because it seems to tie up all the loose ends quickly and easily. It would indeed be nice if it turned out to be a bit more meaningful than I envisage it would be. I do feel uncomfortable about the vows bit, but I don't know what you have to say. (I know the obeying bit isn't in there anymore. DP said 'but you will, anyway, won't you'. I did chuckle and then I made him make me a cup of tea) I assume there is a sort of bare bones version you can opt for.

I do solemnly promise Mumsnet (and my mum) that I will brush my hair before getting married.

Yonic yeah we absolutely would, that's the daft thing, I know. It's just hard to escape all the patriarchy and bridal fluff that surrounds the thing that is marriage in our society, you know? I have trouble removing this practical thing we need to do for my benefit from all the guff that goes with it. DP is blissfully unaware. If I want this we'll do it, if I don't we won't.

You're thinking of a religious ceremony, you can't have any of that at a registrar even if you wanted. If I recall quickly there are 3 versions, one is basically "do you marry this person" and baddaboom you are married

Sorry for triple post but LOL hoppy. I'd hope there'd be some vowels in there somewhere, for everyone's sake

That's good to hear, that's what I want GroundHog. Nice and easy and no fluff. Sign papers and be done.

if it makes you feel better, afaik the only things you actually have to say are along the lines of:

1. I declare that I know of no legal reason why I (full names) may not be joined in marriage to (full names).

1. I (full names) take you (full names) to be my wedded wife/husband.

you can make them more meaningful to you if you want, but that is basically all you have to say in a civil wedding

The actual getting married part takes about 3 mins. I know, I've watched it happen (very few guests at the wedding part, no readings etc - then downstairs in the hotel for a big lunch!)

ah FOG has basically said the same thing

i totally get where you're coming from, and you're absolutely right to think this stuff through. there's no point making vows that to you just sound daft either!

*correctly, not quickly..obviously

www.oxfordshire.gov.uk/cms/content/vows-and-promises-your-wedding

It's very strange that we are given this romantic view of marriage in movies really..because truthfully if you have spent 50 years of your life waking up next to someone just because you love them and had no bit of paper to require you to do so..how is that not romantic?

But at the end of the day marriage is pretty damn convenient for getting all your paperwork done over night.

'What we want is civil partnership'

Hear hear! And it is a possibility for opposite sex couples - there's a legal challenge going through the courts right now arguing that the current situation is discriminatory and unlawful. They are very hopeful of having the law changed so that OS couples can have the option of marriage or civil partnership or neither like SS do now. Which doesn't help you at all right now OP but something to bear in mind......

I'd like a civil partnership, but I feel a bit shitty "asking for it". It feels a bit like saying "oh those lucky homosexuals" when it was a hard won right, and was deliberately made different so as not to upset Christians

Bit like when men rant about women having all the DV shelters if you see what I mean.

I agree with other Posters . Sort out the legalities/protection for both of you whichever way you like . You may want to look beyond what marriage gives you automatically anyway, as it isn't always the best way of doing things (different situation, but we own half each of everything we possess and it goes to a trust for the surviving partner and our two grown up DDs when the first of us goes). I would disregard the fact he brings more 'materially' into the partnership than you. We started off like that but over the years it has become 50:50
The getting married or not question is trickier. I saw it as an affirmation before God (you can ignore that bit !) and, perhaps more importantly, before our friends and family, that I loved this man and he loved me and we intended to spend our lives together, to raise a family together and would always look after each other (the love and cherish bit) I didn't see it as a bit of fluff but as deeply meaningful . But we are all different and if a quick 'sign on the dotted line' is all you want, then go for it . Sounds a bit corny, but I do think the celebratory bit is quite important ; a lovely lunch with your very nearest and dearest is enough (your DCs and DPs maybe .) And wear something lovely, as I suspect you will regret it in years to come if you don't .
Good Luck whatever you decide

No, I think its totally fine Groundhog. It was absolutely right and proper that same sex couples should be allow to marry - they should have a right to everything legal that opposite sex couples do. I think its really important that CPs should be kept on though and extended to everyone. Marriage is seen as an outmoded and outdated institution by some me and some people have no desire to get involved in it, but would like legal security. On the other hand, the tradition of marriage means a lot to some people and they would find a CP lacking. I don't see why there can't be room for everyone.

yy i know what you mean FOG. it would be great, but i'm hard-pushed to call it discrimination against heterosexuals

The origins of marriage are to protect property and finances. Nothing to do with romance. Indeed, that's why arranged marriages did and still do happen.

This is totally irrelevant to your thread OP but interesting, related to what marriage is actually about and how it has changed. thephilosophersmail.com/relationships/how-we-end-up-marrying-the-wrong-people/

I got married in part for paperwork reasons. You can keep it low key, if you like, or use the excuse for a party. I feel more like I am in a civil partnership with my husband than any patriarchal institution. I do agree that it's really problematic in theory, but in practice, it's what you make of it - and a lot of that is who you marry. If your bloke is decent and you feel like an equal partner to him, then why not get that down on paper just in case anything happens?

Oh yes and agreed - we had a civil wedding at a registry office, and there were no vows. You can choose promises, but you can say what you like, or I think you can even skip them. You don't have to prove you're in love or anything, and we found that they aren't particularly bothered about the little meeting thing where you have to prove you're not total strangers trying to get a visa - I said I didn't know what DH's actual job title was and she sent me out to check so that he didn't get upset at having the wrong thing written on the form! We are white and very obviously English, though - I don't know if they would be more suspicious of people from different ethnic origins or with English as a second language etc.

Sounds a bit like us 20+ years ago. We had lived together for 20 years and were contemplating having children. I was always a bit resistant to the idea of marriage for all the same reasons as you. DH was only bothered in the sense of doing whatever I was happy with.
In the end we did it. We didn't have a big wedding, we had a register office quickie with just parents and told other people afterwards. I kept my name.
Wills are still important even if you marry.

I'm married and I was very upfront from the beginning that I felt very uncomfortable with the whole historical 'ownership of women' aspect as was my husband (when I explained my feelings). I'd always said I didn't want to get married but came round the idea when we's talked it through.

We are still equal partners in our relationship. We avoided any parts of the ceremony that we didn't like such as engagement rings, giving away, changing names etc. We explained during the ceremony why we were doing/ not doing certain things.

The romantic in me enjoyed celebrating our relationship and making a commitment in front of those close to us.

If a civil partnership was available to us we would have done that but we settled with making marriage our own (I hope).

I am really relieved to hear that it can be so straightforward to just get it done. It helps a lot. I would be interested to see if it turns out to feel more important at the time or after the event than it does now. At the moment it seems like vaguely dreadful thing, like an exam I haven't revised for or something!

I see what you mean about civil partnerships FOG. I hadn't thought about it like that. It would be good if all people could just do the thing that works for them without all this ridiculousness.

Postchildren I apologise, it wasn't my intention to be disparaging about people to whom marriage is more meaningful. But the fact it is not so meaningful to me is one of the things that makes me feel a bit uncomfortable about doing it. It doesn't have that commitment association to me because everyone I've ever known who married has er, divorced again (sometimes repeatedly).

Thanks as well for the tales of reluctant marriages that are working just fine, they help too.

We did the registry thing with 2 witnesses. In fact people ahead of us pitied us so much they offered to lend us their guests.

But it was done with minimal fuss. Can't bear the whole vow thing really. Give me a piece of paper in the post and I'll sign it thank you very much.

Romantic, me.

Too many s.

They offered you their guests?!

Did they ask the guests first

Haha! That's brilliant. I'm imagining a perplexed pair of be-hatted wedding guests wondering where on earth their friends are and who are these strangers in jeans. I have seen a couple of threads on here with people appealing for witnesses for discreet registry office marriages. I had assumed your witnesses would have to know you in some capacity. I wouldn't mind my mum witnessing to redress the balance on the paperwork front, I know the fathers name goes on but not the mothers (more of this partiarchal crap!) She'd have to promise not to whine about my hair though. Or cry. Or maybe even say anything at all