Encouraging girls to do Physics, Technology, Engineering and Maths. Is it worth it

[rationaloptimist123]

Only 2% of British girls are taking A'level Physics. This means that a significant number of high paying career options are going to be closed to them in 5, 10, 15 years time. Does this concern anyone else?

Just talking from the pov of the lower income areas and their schools for outreach.
There always seem to be a couple from these schools who go into careers in science, engineering, etc.
I'm sure there would be more to reach.
However, I remain convinced its a preserve for those who are strongly encouraged by parents, not necessarily employed in these fields themselves, but at least educated in their worth.

Paul Nurse came from a working class background and said he found Science more accessible than the Humanities at his grammar school because parental input made less of a difference. The Humanities required cultural knowledge that the middle middle class prize. Historically science was more of an even field. Admittedly, if my and my friends are anything to go by, that is no longer true. I'm a biologist working in the pharmaceutical industry and all my friends force feed their children science (as well as theatre/travel/museums/art galleries). We all know it's a good career that is family friendly (for both parents). But at work there is a real mix of social backgrounds, I'm in the NE and a lot of my colleagues were bright kids from stable working class backgrounds, as well as there being a fair smattering of posher folk from all over. I suspect if I went to e.g. an art gallery there would be less of a social mix.

I think women are breaking into STEM subject but physics is the last bastion of male domination in English speaking countries. I'm actually really happy that so many women do maths (40% is high enough that stereotype threat won't apply anymore), I think that is a more useful general subject to study and there would be very few careers that would demand a physics degree but not be happy with a maths degree.

But agree that A levels force specialisation too early, I did Highers in Scotland, I had 7 Highers, all the classic sciences and a few humanities as well, all the bright kids at school would have done a similar mix, we all HAD to do English and Maths at Higher, and at least one Science. And because we do 4 year degrees you are admitted to a faculty rather than a specific degree course so I didn't actually choose my final degree subject until the end of my second year at Uni. I think that flexibility is great and allows you to make a choice based on some real knowledge of the subject as a adult (I made my final degree choice at the age of 20 and the choice between Science and Humanities at 18).

I regret not sticking with my dream as I am more of a creative/technical thinking person whereas science is more fact based.

Are you in a University? Look for jobs in the biotech/pharma industry if you want a more engineering type job.

slightlyglitterstained

Thanks for sharing that picture. It's great how an image can stick in your mind and allow you to reimagine what a "rocket scientist" looks like.

Just shown it to my daughter.

I think a lot of science is about problem-solving, and that can be quite creative. The facts are just the tools of the trade, in the way that a potter may know about different glazes, or a dressmaker knows about working with different fabrics, or an artist knows which colours to mix.

No I'm not in a university (I'm mid 30's) I'm now part time so my job isn't such a big factor in my life anymore so doesn't bother me so much. It was more when I was working full time and doing on call and night shifts that it got to me. I have a LO and one on the way so much better things to focus my attentions on now thankfully :-)

Unclerory

I wasn't really just referring to mc families in my post moreover the children who have never heard of grammar schools, let alone attended one.
There are bright intelligent kids in some of the schools I refer to but they are disadvantaged to begin with. Either peer pressure and/or no encouragement or support from parents, little in the way of careers advice or accessible role models, they don't stand a chance. Immediately it is seen as not for them, and if they show an interest they are met with negative responses.
"What on earth do you want to do that for?' "leave school and get a proper job".

Some of the stuff encouraging girls into STEM is dire though and would put most girls off - I present: www.wes.org.uk/sites/default/files/WESA2Posterv2.pdf

Oh I agree, Waiting. Everything I see which does the "let's make science pink and fluffy and then girls will like it" thing makes me cringe. But then I tell myself that I am not and never was the target audience, so what do I know?

This blog by the woman who runs Young Rewired State (yearly programming event) is excellent on how efforts to get more girls involved can backfire

mulqueeny.wordpress.com/2012/06/12/how-to-put-girls-off-from-all-forms-of-programmingtech-by-emma-der-mulqueeny/

rationaloptimist123 those engineers wouldn't be generating very much revenue if they were all dying of MRSA if there were no hospital cleaners!

Your post most succinctly demonstrates how little value we place on these essential jobs in our society.

A society can have as many scientists and engineers as it wants but they are of no value without all the 'women's work' that goes on behind the scenes.

The pay gap (because that what this is about) will only diminish when we value the work that is the true backbone of the economy, rather than trying to push a bunch of educated mc girls into stem rather than the arts.

"trying to push a bunch of educated mc girls into stem rather than the arts."

This captures the problem quite nicely. Assuming that girls need to be pushed into STEM, rather than finding ways to counteract all the many many factors pushing them away from STEM.

Jackieharris
I'm not quite sure if you're being serious.

But let me visit your world for a moment.

You think that the "problem" won't be solved until we persuade more boys to go into the "5Cs" (childcare, catering, cleaning, cashiering and caring). Correct?

So let's go with your analysis for a while. In a few years' time your son might say to say to you "Mum, I'm really good at code. I want to go into computing".

Your response (I'm guessing?) will be "No Son! My duty is to persuade you to one of the 5Cs. You be a hospital cleaner my lad! As a man you will automatically drive up pay and close the pay gap in jobs which are the backbone of society."

Your son will say "Wow, Mum. Why didn't I think of that? Your argument is totally foolproof. As a man in this field, I will advertise my services at say a reasonable £200 per hour."

The work would obviously come flooding in!!!

I'm going to take a wild guess here Jackieharris and speculate that maths or economics aren't your natural talents.

Apologies if I'm wrong.

Sorry but cleaning has no real socially perceived value because it's unskilled, dirty work. I can't remember anyone ever referring to refuse collection as being the backbone of society, even though it's a male dominated field. Or road cleaners who mop up piss, shit and puke from our city centres every Sunday morning, after multitudes of men/women get blind drunk Saturday night.

And I don't believe we are pushing girls into stem either, any more than we do with ethnic minorities (something I've also been involved with). The word is encourage or support, which is totally different.

Some of the stuff encouraging girls into STEM is dire though and would put most girls off - I present:

Wow... that is... black comedy of the highest order. I will show my daughter that and get her opinion. She chose to do physics, advanced math, robotics, programming and IT at school. She will certainly have something to say about it, unless its so offensive to her intelligence she just snorts in derision.

You're wrong

Jackieharris
Clearly.

Your logic is rock - solid and completely makes sense.

Paying individual male (?) hospital cleaners more is going to be a much better overall approach than say having more cleaners?

This is where you can showcase your numerical / financial reasoning. Which do you think would be more affordable / effective if you have finite resources?

How about tackling MRSA at the root cause level - eg by developing research scientists who have the capability to address the issue of antibiotic - resistance?

No - you're right.. Simply drive more men to be cleaners!!! It's so clear! The Nobel Prize for Economics has your name on it this year.

Ok, I said to my daughter: 'I want to show you a pamphlet that was produced to get school age girls interested in Engineering, I would like your opinion on its effectiveness.'

Her response, paraphrased: (looks at first page) Oh fck, oh fck. No, just no. (rambling frustration and negativity deleted) I see what they are trying to do, yea, but the kind of girls attracted to it (the pamphlet) are not going to ever do engineering. It would be better redone for girls more inclined to be interested through the types of hobbies they do. (looks at second page) (groans) They work so hard to put race (equality) into it and right in the middle of the page... white woman caring for poor black children... really?

Which pamphlet did you show her, DWH? And what age is she?

Have registered on STEMnet. We shall have to see what happens next!

Science is I thought getting less interest in as a whole I though across both genders. If on top of this females think its not for them then thats a double tragedy.

It will just lead to a an already male industry becoming more so.

As others have mentioned I would think the positive role models, ambassadors. Is there some fault to be laid at careers advisors?

It wouldn't say that all of STEM is lucrative as when I left University over 15yrs ago Aldi were offering double the graduate salary and a car compared to my starting salary in engineering.

" Is there some fault to be laid at careers advisors?"
tbh I think it is the fault of schools' culture; my dd is doing engineering but has been in trouble for walking out of the class when the boys start discussing sex in a really porny way. The male teacher makes no attempt to stop them or else he cannot hear them over the sound of the tools.

also I should say that the low take up of STEM subjects among girls is a reflection of wider society where girls are ornamental sex objects and wear pink, etc etc. rant rant moan moan!!

I was adding my personal experience as an extra confirmation. I have no axe to grind, I am both a biologist and a physicist. I can assure you biology A level is harder. I don't dispute the formula at all, although I do know physics teachers that might.

I find this rather surprising not as someone who has taught both but someone who has taken both.

Do you have a reason for believing this other than personal experience? Because others have posted numerous articles that suggest otherwise.

Happened to speak to a girl of about 30 recently - she is whizzy in geophysics and could work anywhere in the world. Her sis worked in the city for several years, long enough to save enough money to give up that work and set up a new charity, doing something she truly finds rewarding. The girl is hoping to do similar.

If you go into typical female employment you won't be retiring to follow your dreams after 5-10 years, if at all, like these two.

OK, so just pretending for a moment that this is me being resourceful and taking initiative, rather than being lazy and leaving things to the last minute, would you all care to help me out with a talk I have to give to a group of women in technical roles in the IT industry in a couple of days?

After last time's whingefest (not entirely my fault, but my mistake in speaker selection) I want to make this one about the positive things about being a woman in a male dominated job role.

So far I am stuck at "no queues for the loos at conferences" - I want to talk about the positive impact of diversity on organisations and teams but all the stats seem to be about having female leaders, rather than about a diversity (of all sorts, not just gender) at the ground level. I can also talk at a personal level about being noticed for good reasons (and being promoted whilst on maternity leave - that was a high point )

All suggestions very welcome (and can come, clearly, from any technical job role which is male dominated, not just from IT)

...and if you are coming to it then come and say hello but please don't out me. TIA.