Encouraging girls to do Physics, Technology, Engineering and Maths. Is it worth it

[rationaloptimist123]

Only 2% of British girls are taking A'level Physics. This means that a significant number of high paying career options are going to be closed to them in 5, 10, 15 years time. Does this concern anyone else?

I think there are two parts to this.

Do we want more girls to become engineers?

Yes.

Do we want more of the girls who currently study Physics at A level to become engineers?

I would say no. About 30% of the girls doing Physics go on to medicine, dentistry or to be a vet. About 10% of the boys do. I do not want engineering poaching women away from medicine. We really need female doctors.

Physics is really hard at A level. A student who got B's at GCSE will probably get a C in most subjects at A level, but will probably get a D in Physics, according to the stats from A level results. This is not some Science is harder thing; A level French is also really hard compared to other subjects.

Unless somebody really loves Physics, or wants to do it for its hardness so they stand out when applying for a competitive course ( like medicine) or they want to be an engineer or a physicist or similar, it is foolish to do A level Physics. It might reduce your grades for university.

Of the girls doing Physics, 36% of them get an A compared to 28% of the boys. So there is no question of the girls' capability at the top level. They are not choosing other university courses because they are not good enough at Physics. They are good enough.

If Physics, Maths and Engineering want more women, they should be poaching more girls at GCSE phase who are currently opting out of Science completely at A level, not poaching those girls doing Science A levels who are heading towards the life sciences.

^little less bleak

It is worth it of course. But what works? Back when I did a-levels (20+ years ago) there were the same concerns about girls in science and initiatives to increase participation. (I went on a 'women into engineering' week which was part of a big nationwide program when I was 17). I did a physics degree (5 women, 50 men) and it seems things haven't changed at all.

Male dominated subjects include maths, physics, computing.

Female dominated subjects include performing arts, drama and RE.

I wonder which lead to the most lucrative jobs.

I think the non-vocational view of higher education as per MoreBetas post is part of the problem.

Yuh - if you're gonna work a 70 hour week for 30 years - what you studied at uni for 3 years back in the mists of time doesn't matter much.

But as a STEM Russell Group graduate who had a whole gang of career disrupting kids by the time I hit 30 - my perceived competence at numerical and technical tasks has been a cash cow I've kept milking.

When I asked for flexible working - my employer said 'no' - but then came crawling back two weeks later when they discovered how hard it was to recruit someone who could hold their own with the boffins.

While my history teacher friends have had eye-roll attitude towards needing DC flexibility - teacher training providers are falling over themselves to give STEM grads golden handshakes.

I've quit work now - having never taught a day in my life - and according to a local agency my 'rack rate' is £30 per hour, if I fancied tutoring maths GCSEs.

But I don't really need to take on many hours - because I married the boyfriend I met on my uni course - who's now leveraged his STEM degree into a secure highly paid job.

I would advise any 'undecided' girl to go STEM.

I did a chemistry degree 20 years ago: 20 women, 135 men. I gather the proportion of women doing chemistry has improved since then.

Well from the IOP stats it looks like something around single sex might help. What could be done around that I don't know.

The stats around single sex / mixed raise a lot of questions generally for me. If it is affecting subject choice like that what else is going on?

trixy YY actuarial is great, loads of women. I wonder how / why it became so attractive / accessible to women? Do you have any ideas?

I don't recognise Almondcakes description at all, and have worked in education for 20 years!

By all measurements, Physics is classed as an easier A level than biology!

I have seen many many girls do physics A level, however none, not one has gone into medicine, dentistry or become a vet.

I have never heard Physics described as easy before!

I'm sure I've read that it's "hard" at A-Level and beyond as well.

What sort of school do you work at Caronaim? Is it single sex / independent / etc?

Sardine - the point is that the OP was concerned about "....high paying career options are going to be closed...." if girls don't do STEM subjects

Securing a high paying job is not dependent on a STEM degree. It doesn't matter whether girls do STEM subjects because the level of pay you get in your subsequent job does not depend on your degree.

You can work in the City or become a CEO with any degree.

Applied engineering, physics and maths jobs tend to be lowly paid because they are more likely to be working in an industry competing directly with China and India.

I would be interested to see the stats on women in accounting Sardine. I work quite closely with accountants and my impression is that a significant proportion are female based on the couple of places I have worked. I think probably for women with an aptitude for maths finance is less intimidating than engineering etc?

from 2008 study found Physcis A-Level the hardest subject.

IOP found that 49% of maintained co-ed schools sent no girls on to take A-level physics in 2011. The figure for all secondary schools was 46%. Combined with the figure of only 2% of girls taking A-Level Physics it seems that to be putting so many girls through is quite an anomoly - I would be really interested to hear the profile of the school / what you are doing and I expect the IOP would be interested to hear as well TBH because they are grappling with this at the moment. You might hold the answer!

trixy I think accounting has been very popular with women for quite a long time hasn't it? As I understand it certain types of accountant are able to be v flexible (self-employed?) so it's a family friendly option?

certainly even when i was young the more sensible girls became accountants on that basis!

accountancy that should probably be.

Underwriting (Life anyway) is v female friendly too if we're sticking with an insurance theme

OK, marking my place to read this properly when is not calling me. Co-incidentally, I signed up to be a STEM ambassador this morning, and I shall shamelessly borrow some of your stats for a talk I am giving next week.

To add to the argument that it is something in our education system that causes this drop off - talking to technical women from across Europe, Middle East and Africa, it is only the Western European countries and those like Australia and the US that show this pattern. My colleagues from some middle east countries tell me that engineering degrees are >50% female there.

Accountancy and finance - IME second only to HR for women in the IT industry, BTW.

Sardinequen, I worked in a mixed school, but it was 60% boys, and no, biology is classed as harder than physics. That is not just the official stats, I can also back that up from teaching both! biology is significantly harder. Look at any of the government prediction formula, or the university prediction spreadsheets. whateverGCSE results you enter, you will always get a lower predicted grade for A level biology than for A level physics.

YY stealth have heard that too there are cultural things going on

Fascinating chart noblegiraffe - interesting to see that other subjects (music) are also male-dominated.

So Durham got it wrong?

OK then, Physics is easy, got it

Do you think the other stats are skewed as well then, given your experience?

I mean the IOP stats as they are very out of line with what you are saying you have seen "on the ground" in the last couple of decades.

I wonder how many children are taught physics GCSE by someone with a physics degree.

I've taught both, physics is significantly easier than biology! I promise you! I know physics teachers that wouldn't agree with that, but the one I'm thinking of are quite big on surrounding their subject with an air of mystery. Most of the biology teachers I know wouldn't care either way, but those of us who have taught both would agree.

Beta Really - engineers don't wear overalls - and they're only replaced by 'engineers from India' in the sense of people from the subcontinent being more motivated to educate their kids in secure lucrative careers - not because they are 'cheap'.

As a STEM graduate - I have found my career progression far less competitive than my humanities/arts educated friends. I have been offered opportunities in a wide range of fields - ranging from jobs that actually needed my skills (eg well funded PhDs), jobs that thought that I could be effectively trained up in relevant skills (finance), jobs where I'd need to liaise with technical people (I.e. Management, civil service) - and jobs where they are plain prejudiced towards assuming STEM=megabrain.