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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Changes in how rape will be investigated- about time!

590 replies

AWholeLottaNosy · 28/01/2015 22:05

I just read this and I was really pleased. It's about time rape was investigated and prosecuted differently considering the appalling rape conviction rate we have in this country. Imagine there will be an outcry from all the MRAs, but, I think it's very good news...

www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/law-and-order/11375667/Men-must-prove-a-woman-said-Yes-under-tough-new-rape-rules.html

OP posts:
shaska · 29/01/2015 22:08

Apocalypse

good point well made

BuffytheReasonableFeminist · 29/01/2015 22:13

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BuffytheReasonableFeminist · 29/01/2015 22:14

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BuffytheReasonableFeminist · 29/01/2015 22:15

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YonicScrewdriver · 29/01/2015 22:16

Buffy, did you mean "the former"?

BuffytheReasonableFeminist · 29/01/2015 22:16

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YonicScrewdriver · 29/01/2015 22:18

X post! Phew, you are still reasonable!

And actually, if a man thinks he can't manage not to rape someone unless he's got a contract to hand, well, maybe that should be his tactic then. Better than accidentally raping someone.

SardineQueen · 29/01/2015 22:23

But there is no change to the law.
Nor to the court process.

Police and prosecutors have new guidance around how to handle rape cases.

For the police it means focussing more on the behaviour of the suspect than previously - "did she consent" asked of the suspect rather than "what did you do to lead him on are you sure you aren't making it all up" to the victim.

For prosecutors to make sure that they give full consideration when deciding whether to bring cases including what the suspect had to say about the whole thing in terms of their actions and what happened - which often has not been considered - and this would lead to more cases of the Ched Evans type being brought (it was his own narrative of events that night that convicted him).

I simply cannot understand why anyone would have a problem with this.

What is wrong with asking people who are accused of sex offences to explain how they knew they had consent (if they are saying there was consent). Why would anyone argue that the police should NOT ask questions around that, which is what seems to be the argument.

I can't think of another crime where people would argue that the police should not be allowed to ask any questions of the suspect beyond "did you do it"....! And if the answer is "No" then the police go "OK alright then off you go sorry to have troubled you"...

BuffytheReasonableFeminist · 29/01/2015 22:24

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scallopsrgreat · 29/01/2015 22:30

Yy SardineQueen. I find it hugely worrying and more than a little sinister that for this guidance to have been produced these types of questions clearly aren't being asked already. And if they aren't being asked, what are they asking rapists?

MoreBeta · 29/01/2015 22:31

Buffy - its fine. Don't worry. I know what you meant.

BuffytheReasonableFeminist · 29/01/2015 22:34

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BuffytheReasonableFeminist · 29/01/2015 22:35

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YonicScrewdriver · 29/01/2015 22:36

Scallops, in the single page of a police notebook that CE has reproduced on his website, there is a note that CM said "yeah, she was consenting"

Now I realise I'm bounding into speculation here and maybe the next few un reproduced pages were full of incisive questions, but I wonder what question produced that phrase as an answer?

scallopsrgreat · 29/01/2015 22:47

Yes it doesn't give you the greatest confidence does it? But of course men have no reason to lie about raping women and consent....oh wait...

TheSubjugatedDad · 29/01/2015 22:51

House, I'm not sure the issue of false rape allegations is relevant to this particular thread. Nonetheless, it is common on this forum for such posts to be written off with an accusation of rape apology. I don't think they are generally intended as such, and was just pointing out that there is a reasonable motive for providing such extreme and rare examples when discussing a law, in that it tests how fundamental rights are protected.

I know for many of you, increasing the amount of rape convictions is a priority, since many of you have had first hand experience of the problems in the system. But for others, protecting fundamental rights such as 'innocent until proven guilty' is even more important. That might seem ludicrous, but it you compare it to other issues (such as the families of murder victims who want the bring back the death penalty vs those who think even one false conviction is not worth it) then it makes sense.

I said I'm "not sure" if the issue of false rape allegations is relevant, and I'm not sure because I generally think that anything that moves the onus away from the prosecution and onto the defence is a bad thing. I know the law hasn't changed, and that this is only guidance relating to existing laws, but clearly the intended effect is to change how they are dealt with in court, no? Currently, there seems to be very little responsibility placed on the defendant to prove they had consent... and the intended change is that defendants will now have to argue their cases that they had consent. I don't really see how anyone could not think this is moving (if even slightly) away from the defendant being thought of as innocent and towards them being thought of as guilty-until-they-explain-themselves-in-a-way-that-convinces-the-jury. I'm not saying the change is a bad thing, by the way, just that I can understand why some other posters are concerned about how this affects the 'innocent until proven guilty' thing.

Clearly men should be questioned. But they also have the right to remain silent. Adverse inferences can be made by a defendants silence, but there are limits to this; nobody can be convicted based on silence alone. What if the defendant refuses to speak at all at a trial? I could see this becoming more commonplace if the trend moves towards grilling defendants. How do we reconcile the two issues? If someone uses their right to remain silent, then they cannot prove they had consent, (but since the burden is on the prosecution) we are back to square one.

On another note. People are saying that "innocent men have nothing to worry about", and whilst I would tend to agree, that really misses the point. Whilst I think it's incredibly unlikely that a woman who consented to sex would report a rape, because it could happen theoretically, the law and it's guidance need to be robust enough to account for such situations. So all in all, I think a lot of the hostility towards people who bring up the issue is really unwarranted.

And finally, what is with all the hostility on this forum anyway? I've been lurking for a while and it seems that if someone doesn't agree with the attitudes of a core clique of posters then they face a barrage of abuse. I don't think that's any way to act no matter what someone else's opinion is. Probably against forum rules, etc.

TheSubjugatedDad · 29/01/2015 22:55

In my third paragraph, add 'police' to the lines written court/jury/etc. The guidance will affect the whole thing I'm sure.

PuffinsAreFictitious · 29/01/2015 22:55
DirtyPigeon · 29/01/2015 22:59

And, thus, it is proven that men define consent.

Tazers in bounty packs, please. Rape laws do not protect women.

cailindana · 29/01/2015 23:00

Posters are 'hostile' because they've been raped (in many cases, including my own, more than once) their sisters have been raped, their friends have been raped, their mothers have been raped, their daughters have been raped. Thousands upon thousands upon thousands of women are raped, every year. A tiny tiny percentage of those rapists are prosecuted, so few that in legal terms you would be forgiven for thinking rape wasn't really a crime at all. And you're asking us to worry about a hypothetical situation in which some tiny percentage of men might have a hard time at trial, maybe.

Can you understand why that might seem a little galling?

YonicScrewdriver · 29/01/2015 23:05

Subjugated, what do you think of the example above when, if someone is dead or injured and someone else is admitting they caused it but is claiming self defence, then the police guidelines are, I'm sure, to probe that (what did the injured person do to make you feel threatened? When did you first feel threatened? What actions did you take to check if the threat was real? - might all be reasonable questions, n'est-ce pas?)

If you aren't already aware of it, a number of rape victims post on this board and these threads. This is lived reality, not a debating society.

scallopsrgreat · 29/01/2015 23:07

Nobody is abusing you. We are disagreeing with you. Interesting you see it that way though.

Men lie all the time about raping women. Thousands and thousands more men lie about rape. Why are you not worried about that? All these thousands of men getting away with raping women because they lie and because everyone knows they will believed. Including the victim. That is a much much bigger problem. Aren't us feminists always told not to worry our pretty little heads about the small stuff and concentrate on the big stuff? Apparently that only seems applicable when men aren't to be held accountable for their actions or lose their privilege.

It is most definitely in men's interests to maintain the rape myth that women lie. It does not surprise me a man is banging this drum. A drum that is banged ad nauseum every time rape and the minute possibility (and it is minute) of men being convicted of rape is brought up. Really you aren't saying anything insightful or new. You are just mansplaining to us about why we apparently don't understand the nuances of false rape allegations.

But my feminist bingo card is full now so that's good news!

YonicScrewdriver · 29/01/2015 23:07

Didn't really finish off my first point properly.

The kind of questions that the DPP is proposing seem very similar to the kinds of questions that might result if self defence was the defence to a crime. I doubt you'd find those unreasonable, SD, so why your concern here?

TheSubjugatedDad · 29/01/2015 23:08

I understand the feelings (as much as a man can), yes. Is it an excuse for being abusive to other posters, no.

Some people will have different opinions to you, and you need to deal with it in a way that doesn't involve being an asshole.

And I'm not asking YOU to worry about a rare hypothetical situation; I'm just saying that some other people do worry about it. It's important to them, and if you find it annoying that it's important to them then you should just ignore their posts instead of being abusive.

Personally, I would not bring up issues like that on a forum that is populated with many people who have suffered rape. Just as I wouldn't bombard a forum or facebook of someone who's lost someone to murder, with arguments for the abolition of the death penalty or whatever. Let be clear that I have not raised the issue, I was just defending those who have.

AWholeLottaNosy · 29/01/2015 23:09

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