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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Feminist Pub 15: The Bluestocking hangs up its, err, stocking and hopes for a chatty Christmas and a Feminist New Year

999 replies

YonicSleighdriver · 10/12/2014 19:05

Festive greetings!

This is the 15th incarnation of the Pub and is meant as a place to drop by with random thoughts and meandering chats, on feminist or other related themes. Anything you want to mull over but not necessarily start a thread about. Alternatively, get some booze and snacks and hang out! Lurkers, newbies and oldbies welcome.

We have a pub goat, a feminist cannon for firing at crazy sexists and we cheer each other up when patriarchy grinds us down...

Last pub drinkie linkie:

Pub 14

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EilisCitron · 17/12/2014 12:08

I work for an organisation that is famously averse to using job titles. they are not on business cards nor in most email sigs.
I work with a lot of people overseas and when you are on the phone and don't see them introduce themselves it can be very easy to get mixed up with names, when you are trying to match emails with 12 internal names, with the voices on the call, with who is directly respsonsible for what, and if more than one are in the same department, who is senior to whom. (it's not that it doesn't matter - the belief behind not using job titles may be some utopian idea that we are all equals who all pitch in with our brilliant ideas - but when it actually comes to it, they haven't escaped actually having particular responsibilities or levels in a hierarchy and all the normal pitfalls associating with getting this wrong still apply)

Anyway. Recently we have all had (horrible in my case) photos taken, and little head shots attached on our email system. So now, you can't tell what dept the person emailing you is in; you can't work out if they are senior or junior; you can't tell anything else about their formal work role; but you get this little head shot that tells you what the person looks like.

I really object to this. Not knowing what people look like per se, as we all have bodies and it is only geographical accident that we don't sit in the same room with them. but with privileging this meat-gut-feeling sort of information over the formal information that shows how much work and experience a person has behind them, what their qualifications are etc - in other words, their job title. In a context in which we are all swimming about, desperate to find out what the hell everyone does, it seems horribly retrograde that you don't get automatically given the information "chief accountant" but you do get "female, pretty and petite". And it seems to be basically an invitation to make assumptions based on the shonky ape-prejudice we all carry about, because it is only the provision of information, hard fact ("this is Yewonde Ankitola. She is our senior corporate counsel") that you can get obscure what the ape brain is putting in place in the absence of anything else "good looking black girl").

None of this is deliberate of course. It just hasn't been thought about in these terms, because the people who put this sort of thing in place are very comfortable with this whole "relationship" based way of doing things, which means going around making animal judgements about who you feel comfortable with, making them feel comfortable with you, and basing your business around connections with them. So anything that works on this animal level is seen as friendly, practical, helpful, reasonable. "it's all about the relationship" is something that gets said several times a day in my office and it gives me the willies because what I hear is "it's not about being clever, fast, organised, creative, honest, analytical, original. It's about making some fattish arrogant bloke with a SAHW who never challenges him, and no female friends, like you"

PoinsettiaGordino · 17/12/2014 12:14

From an academic pov It would be interesting to do an analysis of early career authorship collaborations and seniority of co-authors by gender. But it's difficult to do because you can't always identify those things

kim147 · 17/12/2014 12:22

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BuffyWithChristmasEarings · 17/12/2014 12:28

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BuffyWithChristmasEarings · 17/12/2014 12:29

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BuffyWithChristmasEarings · 17/12/2014 12:29

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YonicSleighdriver · 17/12/2014 12:34

Well done Kim.

Great post, Ellis.

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UptoapointLordCopper · 17/12/2014 12:47

Buffy - seems overly naive to think co-authorship is always collaboration. I can think of several different reasons my name appears on co-authored papers...

BuffyWithChristmasEarings · 17/12/2014 12:57

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UptoapointLordCopper · 17/12/2014 13:04

These people live in ivory towers. Oh hang on ...

FibonacciSeries · 17/12/2014 13:08

I need to vent.

I have an acquaintance from Uni on my FB. He's very fond of sexist humour and comments, but I always call him out on it and to his credit, he often agrees, apologizes and reconsiders.

But he's got a FB friend who is just an absolutely freakin' Neanderthal. This guy already made fun of me in a couple of FB threads when I presented well thought out arguments (because, you know, it's not the womenz place to think or be articulate) and I retaliated with a joke-but-not-really-a-joke that put him back in his place.

Today, talking about something as trivial as the new Hobbit film, he's written: "That's what I tell my friends when we see a fat woman on the street: Run, You Fools!"

I really want to go in and rip him a new one, but OTOH I know that it won't change anything, it will make him even nastier and he will stoop down to the personal attacks. So I will try my best to ignore, but it's put me on a foul mood.

Maybe I should just block him.

YonicSleighdriver · 17/12/2014 13:13

Yep block him

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JeanneDeMontbaston · 17/12/2014 13:15

Grin at lordC.

Congratulations kim, well deserved!

Is anyone else getting really fed up with Christmas wifework this year? I'm not even bloody married and it still seems to be there! I've just had emails from two friends of ex-DH asking for his address to send cards to, and someone else on facebook saying since he isn't on there, could I pass along a Christmas party invitation. Hmm

And my mother (bless her, but ...) is driving me bonkers. Since early November she has insisted on telling me exactly who plans to come, when, for what meals over a two-week festive period. And she has insisted on filling me in, every single time, on precisely what she's planned to buy. And what she could still buy. And what she would buy, if there were different requirements or if the wind were blowing north-north-west and a sparkly unicorn jumped onto the lawn.

And each time I try to cut her off by pointing out that I now know off by heart not only who her guests are, but precisely how many potatoes she has allotted each one and what brand of potatoes they are, she says 'yes' and carries on reminding me. Hmm

She is being very kind to have me for Christmas but it is wearing me down. She knows I feel rotten about not having my own Christmas plans, too.

YonicSleighdriver · 17/12/2014 13:21

Omg Jeanne!

I hope you are suggesting people call him!

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BuffyWithChristmasEarings · 17/12/2014 13:25

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BuffyWithChristmasEarings · 17/12/2014 13:31

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BuffyWithChristmasEarings · 17/12/2014 13:32

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PoinsettiaGordino · 17/12/2014 13:51

Jeanne I would be apoplectic

I agree that co-authorship is not a marker of collaboration nevessarily, but that also reflects some of the problems of measuring achievements through publication. I suspect it's related too

JeanneDeMontbaston · 17/12/2014 13:52

Wow, buffy. Sending strength and Wine - you're obviously going to need it!

yonic - yep!

BuffyWithChristmasEarings · 17/12/2014 13:53

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JeanneDeMontbaston · 17/12/2014 13:55

Grin It is tempting.

What I think we should actually do is an Axis Christmas. Leave all the husbands to look after children. It'd be fab. We'd be written up in the Daily Mail as evil harridans killing Christmas.

SconeRhymesWithGone · 17/12/2014 13:58

Congratulations, Kim! Flowers

PuffinsAreFictitious · 17/12/2014 14:03

Jeanne... you would have been more than welcome to come to ours for Christmas. In fact, we could have had a lovely FWR house party here. There may or may not have been potatoes (number and brand unspecified) as I still don't have a proper kitchen, but wine would have flowed and laughs would have been had.

Kim... that's fabulous. I remember how down you were this time last year, and I'm really happy that 2014 has been your year.

PuffinsAreFictitious · 17/12/2014 14:04

Great minds, eh? Grin

JeanneDeMontbaston · 17/12/2014 14:05

Ohhh, the impossible luxury of not having to know numbers and brands of potatoes! It would be wonderful.

You'll all know I'm desperate when I sneak on here on the 24th begging for asylum.

How are the plans for getting the proper kitchen going?