Why isn't there a genuine 'Men's Movement'..?

[AWholeLottaNosy]

So instead of Pick Up Artists, MRAs, UKIP etc, why isn't there a genuine 'Men's Movement' to look at issues such as male suicide, depression, alcoholism, difficulties with expressing emotions and vulnerability, male violence ( against both men and women), homophobia, how to have a fulfilling relationship with a woman and be a good father etc? I would fully support anyone who attempted to do this as they are laudable and important aims.

INSTEAD OF SLAGGING US OFF FOR TRYING TO ADDRESS ISSUES THAT AFFECT US AS WOMEN?

Yawn.

More 'they're not disadvantaged because they get promoted faster'. Doesn't matter to those who are discriminated against in the recruitment though.

Buffy...

Not quite. I also agree it's a singular problem of gender stereotypes. But if feminism is tackling problems from a female perspective, then why not a men's movement to tackle them from the male perspective? Where we differ, is the cause/root of the problem... which I suspect you think is men, whereas I think it's men and women.

"I do not think the root cause of the problem is men or women, I think it's socialised masculinity and femininity, with a bit of historical and cultural influence and rather a large smidgen of capitalism."

Yup.

Prashad, do you think a disproportionate number of potential male nursery nurse recruits are turned down at the training or recruitment stage? Or do you think those that get through are proportional to those that apply?

I am involved in training nurses, including admissions, and work with senior nurses and professors of nursing research. It is not as described in terms of gender discrimination

Caring professions tend to be relatively low status

Caring professions tend to have low pay

Caring professions tend to be dominated by women

Men who want to work in a caring profession may find themselves the target of discrimination

Despite this, men who join caring professions tend to rise further up the ladder faster, despite their low representation

Join the dots here. It isn't hard. The discrimination those men may face is due to the association of the profession with low status, low paid women's work. It's not a privilege for women to be seen as "natural carers"

Is it possible that gendered stereotypes are inculcated in us all from a very early age? However it is women who get the thin end of the wedge most of the time?

In practice we can discuss this, but I think it's incredibly important in the backs of our minds for to be aware women have the bigger cross to bear here. To try to infer there is parity here is intellectually dishonest.

Again there would be precious little problem with a genuine men rights movement, but I'm afraid it's been co-opted by the worst sort.

I would like to say I was an equalist, as I am not really a feminist either, but I am a pragmatist and feminism seems to be the only ideology that has traction, visibility and rolls their sleeves up and gets stuck in steering society in the direction I believe it should be going.

NO MEN ARE DISCRIMINATED AGAINST WHEN IT COMES TO RECRUITING FOR NURSING. THEY SIMPLY DON'T APPLY. THEY DON'T APPLY BECAUSE IT'S HARD WORK FOR SHIT MONEY, BECAUSE IT'S A PREDOMINANTLY FEMALE INDUSTRY.

No idea how to spell it out any clearer than that, no matter how bored you are with the bloody truth!

Honestly, my dogs now understand this....

It's also a course that (in the UK) is often paid for by the state including a bursary on top. Men who are desperate to join the caring profession aren't taking on £30k of debt studying other subjects because of discrimination

I didn't know puffins were allowed to keep dogs, puffins?

Yonic, they are very special dogs, which don't pull on my flippers

and exactly Petula...

Puffins...

How do you know why they don't apply?

Also, don't be mistaken in thinking I am unable to comprehend your point of view. I just disagree with it.

I think men don't apply because they have been socialised to think that caring is a feminine thing and that they are less of a man to want that. Not because it's hard work for shit money.

This is a problem similar to the lack of women becoming car mechanics. Also a tough job for shit money.

"I think men don't apply because they have been socialised to think that caring is a feminine thing and that they are less of a man to want that."

Most feminists would agree with that. But why would a man see being "feminine" as a bad thing? Think it through...

Why are people engaging with this prat?

Petula...

I don't think it has anything to do with thinking women are worth less than men, if that's what you're getting at.

Society just seems to think you should be masculine if you're a man, and feminine if you're a woman, and that it's 'not right' for either gender to exhibit the traits of the other. I think it's a problem perpetuated by both men and women.

Shits and giggles?

Mostly so that the lurkers can see the truth.

However, I'm done. Nobody can possibly be this stupid and able to breathe and type at the same time.

When self proclaimed feminists are abusing men seeking help, shutting down male abuse centres, trying to get special treatment in courts, abusing and calling for segregation of LGBT people, having a woman who confessed to mauling her sister as their icon.. no. And don't get me started on Jezebel.

I'm no fan of Jezebel but I don't believe feminists are doing these things.

"Specifically, they are not recruited in a proportional way in those industries previously mentioned. It's EXACTLY the same problem as the 'not enough women in science' thing. "

Not exactly eh. Because the "not enough women in science" thing, ends up with those who are, being pushed out and/ or hitting a glass ceiling quite low down.

Whereas the "not enough men in nursing/ teaching" thing, ends up with the men who are, having disproportionately senior roles.

How is that "EXACTLY the same problem"?

www.minoritynurse.com/article/structural-inequality-and-diversity-nursing

Extract
"The proportion of male nurses in Australia and the United Kingdom is slightly higher at 7.2% and 10.1%, respectively.12 Indeed there is a signifi cantly lower number of men in nursing, yet they are disproportionately represented in management such that in the United Kingdom, approximately 45% of those in senior management positions and higher education courses are male nurses.1 Additionally, male nurses are reportedly higher paid and move directly into middle and upper remuneration brackets faster than their female counterparts.1,13"

www.computerweekly.com/news/2240159491/The-most-influential-women-in-UK-IT

Extract
"Industry employment surveys suggest that less than 18% of the UK IT workforce is female, and at senior IT leadership levels that falls below 10%."

Don't think male nurses are doing too badly looking at that Prashad. Apparently they seem to do rather well financially too compared with female nurses.

wrong thread!