Why isn't there a genuine 'Men's Movement'..?

[AWholeLottaNosy]

So instead of Pick Up Artists, MRAs, UKIP etc, why isn't there a genuine 'Men's Movement' to look at issues such as male suicide, depression, alcoholism, difficulties with expressing emotions and vulnerability, male violence ( against both men and women), homophobia, how to have a fulfilling relationship with a woman and be a good father etc? I would fully support anyone who attempted to do this as they are laudable and important aims.

INSTEAD OF SLAGGING US OFF FOR TRYING TO ADDRESS ISSUES THAT AFFECT US AS WOMEN?

Erin Pizzey is a good example. Starts women's refuges, then also directs attention to male abuse and gets death threats for it.

There's lots and lots of examples of where 'feminists' or other people have tried to shut down things associated with abuse and males.

No, Erin Pizzey didn't just direct attention to male abuse. She also claimed that female victims of abuse liked it really and wanted attention and started spouting a load of victim blaming bile, then sided with the very men who had abused the women she had started out helping. (Literally these men, not men in general.) She didn't start campaigning perfectly earnestly for genuine male victims. She did a brilliant thing setting up refuges but then showed a startling lack of empathy and understanding after doing it for a while. I understand working with abuse victims is extremely frustrating and difficult to understand but she didn't attempt to understand the mindset, she just blamed women. Thankfully, Women's Aid have a very good understanding of abuse victims' and abusers' mindsets, even if the public at large don't.

Most feminists I know would dearly like to see more men in caring professions as it would be an indication of the breaking down gender stereotypes that would benefit all.

But when professions that are dominated by women have disproportionate men at the top, and the reverse is not true of professions dominated by men, it isn't men who are bearing the brunt of discrimination

Quite, petula. that it even needs to be said. Agree bertie about Erin Pizzey. I think if she's your role model for so-called equalism, it just goes to show that it is not good for women. I'll stick to feminism, thanks.

Quite Petula, but I'm guessing that Prashad is missing the point quite deliberately for reasons of his/her own. Speaking for the Nursing profession, most of them would LOVE to see more men entering and actually staying unpromoted to management, it might mean that nurses got the respect they are due ffs.

And thanks for explaining that so calmly Bertie, it always astounds me that people have got Ms Pizzey so utterly wrong. Makes me splutter a bit.

I didn't know about that actually, so there is no need for you tone Flora. I'll stick to equalism, as I don't really like what this third wave feminism has become. I used to be a feminist, very much so, but unfortunately had to say goodbye to being associated with it.

When self proclaimed feminists are abusing men seeking help, shutting down male abuse centres, trying to get special treatment in courts, abusing and calling for segregation of LGBT people, having a woman who confessed to mauling her sister as their icon.. no. And don't get me started on Jezebel.

It's no wonder a lot of young women aren't wanting to associate themselves with modern feminism thanks to the militant misandrist 'feminists' having the louder voices.

If women were more likely than men to be promoted in IT and engineering and to have the top jobs, then that would look a bit more like the situation for men in nursing and teaching etc.

But men like Prashad don't want to discuss that.

Why do you think that although nursing and teaching is overwhelmingly female, the leadership (higher paid higher status) roles are disproportionately likely to be held by men Prashad?

And how comes that's not happening in IT the other way round?

Whoa there Grays, which 'feminists' are trying to get any of those thing shut down? Or get special treatment in court? Jezebel is hardly feminist either! I don't recognise any of your accusations at all, which is a little odd, no?

Call yourself what you like, by all means, but please, don't tell feminists that they are doing things they patently aren't doing.

I'm sorry if you're ignorant to the fact that these things have been going on in quite large numbers over the years, just as I'm sorry that I wasn't aware of the things Erin Prizzey had actually said.

There's things all over the internet if you'd like to take a look at them, unfortunately I see examples of it almost daily which is really disheartening. Which is why this forum is refreshing because it's one of the only places I've come to that still believes in what my idea of feminism has always been.

Another feminist here who doesn't recognise a single thing that Grays is accusing feminists of saying or doing. It may be the sort of 'feminists' you are reading/hearing about Grays. Perhaps its time to examine your sources regarding feminists/feminism and decide whether they are legitimate or not? Lurk on this board for a bit and see a different point of view.

No, I'm not ignorant of what feminists have been doing, I simply don't recognise anything you've said, because I believe it's not actually true. Or at least not true for any of the many many feminists I know and discuss things with every day. Perhaps your source is unreliable, as Buffy suggests.

I apologise if anything I've said has offended you and can completely understand why it would do so, perhaps I should have kept those views to myself.

Puffins to elaborate to some extent, when I was in the US I did a lot of work trying to raise awareness for male abuse survivors (something close to my heart for reasons I wont go into), numerous times we were met with pickets from 'feminists' with signs about 'male tears', going on about how we're maintaining the 'patriarchy'. Was very sad and very scary. Just one example, but one that made me sad for people who see this as feminism.

Anyway i've derailed enough so again, apologies.

Grays, that's bloody horrible, and I'm sorry that's your experience, however, as I said, I've not come across anyone who says anything of the sort, even among rad fems. Stick around here, we're quite nice really, despite our rep for being a bunch of over educated snotty cows

despite our rep for being a bunch of over educated snotty cows

I'd quite like having that description, I may add that to my twitter

Thankyou

I've just been having a quick look at that, I'll pop in one time thanks for the invite buffy. I hope your throat gets better, I've been the same what with my partner's workplace being a harbour of every microbe imaginable

Anonnynonny...

I acknowledge that women face discrimination in the workplace. I've stated so previously. In regards to IT/Technology/etc, they face discrimination both in recruitment and promotion. In nursing, they face discrimination in promotion.

The reason that I'm not going down that road is not because I deny it is the case (I don't), but because I am making the argument that men are also discriminated against in the workplace.

Specifically, they are not recruited in a proportional way in those industries previously mentioned. It's EXACTLY the same problem as the 'not enough women in science' thing.

The responses so far have been what I've previously called the 'Boohoo, cry me a river, women have it so much worse' response. Sure, women are discriminated against in the workplace. But men are too, that's all I'm saying.

Arguments about how men are still better off because the female dominated industries pay less, and they are more likely to be promoted, etc... are besides the point. If you're a man who wants to be a nursery nurse, a primary school teacher, or a nurse... you face the same problems as women who want to be scientists or engineers. For those people, it's a life changing problem.

Some of you have said that feminists would like to see men in those jobs. Great. I'd expect people interested in equality to want that. Fine. But this thread is about the value of a men's movement, and surely a men's movement would be good for addressing the problem of men facing discrimination in these roles.

Over in the AIBU board, there was a woman lately who was expressing her 'gut feeling' that the male nursery nurse was a paedophile. That's the sort of thing I mean.

The responses so far have been what I've previously called the 'Boohoo, cry me a river, women have it so much worse' response. Sure, women are discriminated against in the workplace. But men are too, that's all I'm saying.

Arguments about how men are still better off because the female dominated industries pay less, and they are more likely to be promoted, etc... are besides the point. If you're a man who wants to be a nursery nurse, a primary school teacher, or a nurse... you face the same problems as women who want to be scientists or engineers. For those people, it's a life changing problem.

None of this is true, and I think you are being deliberately obtuse now if you really can't see the problem here. I really object to your continued and wrong use of boohoo. It is belittling, and I believe you are doing that deliberately as well, because you simply don't know what you're talking about.

And what Buffy said, because you're no longer worth the effort.

I have seen threads that are sexist against male nursery workers etc and I have posted on them calling out the sexism. I've seen other FWR regulars do the same.

Yes, there is sexism against men in certain professions and it would be a fine goal for a men's movement to challenge that.

Which men's movement is, do you know?

Arguments about how men are still better off because the female dominated industries pay less, and they are more likely to be promoted, etc... are besides the point. If you're a man who wants to be a nursery nurse, a primary school teacher, or a nurse... you face the same problems as women who want to be scientists or engineers. For those people, it's a life changing problem.

This really isn't the case in primary school teaching. My OH is a primary school teacher and men in that environment, far from being discriminated against, actually tend to climb the career ladder very quickly. Part of the rationale seems to be that male primary school teachers can be valuable (and rarer) role models for boys with behavioural difficulties. I'd imagine male nursery nurses would be welcomed too.

No idea about the nursing profession. I've as much practical knowledge of this sector as you have about nursery nursing and primary schools - ie none.

For the sake of full disclosure, I am male.

I'm terribly sorry I really don't follow. How can they not be linked? Traditionally female careers are underpaid, how can that not be a factor to the discussion?