trial of alleged rape victim who killed herself

[chaosmonkey]

www.theguardian.com/law/2014/nov/06/call-crown-prosecutors-account-suicide-alleged-rape-victim

A young woman who said she had been raped went on to kill herself after the Crown Prosecution Service put her on trial for making up the allegation in a case originally instigated by her alleged attacker.

A bit speechless, so have just cut and paste initial para - sorry

"I'm sure the world was holding its breath to find out your opinion.."

Venus et al,
I have only been on here for about a week- is it usually so hostile and childish on these threads?
Or is it some sort of Xmas tradition?

I have quoted from a number of sources including the guardian, BBC & others

They frequently share each other's stories and repeat what other news media say. It comes from the same source, the alleged victim/rapist. The account is not strengthened by the story being presented in the same way by different news media.

As has been repeatedly stated, not everyone here accepts the validity of your evidence against Eleanor de Freitas as many people think it is founded in rape myths and does not adequately reflect the reality of rape. So it's entirely pointless stating the same point over and over and over again as we fundamentally don't agree. This case was never actually heard so no one on this thread can claim to know what really happened.

As you have acknowledged the CPS does indeed get things wrong, and yes they do send cases to trial by an arguably rape myth influenced jury when there is little evidence to justify that decision. So the fact that the CPS took on the case is not compelling evidence in itself in favour of this man's version of events.

Venus,
I believe some of the media reports had info directly from announcements and not the DM article.

'My' evidence? You mean the case evidence?
And there you go again with your default 'rape myth' stance even though it does not apply in this case.

We cannot know exactly 'what happened' in a empirical omnipotent way of course, but we have the reported evidence, the fact that the CPS said her earlier evidence was 'inconsistent' and the fact that the CPS took her to trial for 'perverting justice".

That is a LOT of info that most reasonable people would regard as a good indication of what happened. (bless perhaps the case review will reveal something startling?)

Its true that the police, CPS, judge and juries get things wrong sometimes-
No argument there- but most of the time they get it right.
And in this case it looks like they were spot on.

If you are suggesting they are 'usually' wrong then we need to release a lot of murderers and rapists tomorrow.
Is that something you would favour?

bless=unless

You are deluded. You haven't seen the case evidence. The CPS are investigating why they took the case on. The information (it's not evidence as it has not been and will not be presented in court) published so far has been selective and untested. You've formed your views on that selective information looked at through the lens of rape myths. You can think of that as something most "reasonable people" would do because sadly a lot of people believe rape myths, just like you do.

Flora,
"through the lens of rape myths'
Its like you cannot help yourself.
Just because someone disagrees with you it doesnt mean to say they buy into prevalent societal misconceptions. :)

It certainly doesnt mean that they posses lesser ethics and/or interpretative skills.

We all have opinions on lots of subjects that have been filtered via the media from local politics to wars or famines.
All you can do is go on the reported information.

What we DO know about this case is that the CPS felt there was sufficient evidence to convict her of "perverting justice" which often carries a custodial sentence.

And I will repeat my question from earlier:
What do YOU think evidence of a false allegation would be?

I have to say, when I initially saw this story in the press i was so sad for the woman. However, what has come out recently, to me shows that the man in this case was falsely accused of a crime. I have no doubt that the woman was failed, due to her mental health issues but I also totally understand that this man would be adamant in clearing his name. It is a sad situation for all involved. Several posters I have read on here seem to be thinking 'guilty until proven innocent' which is an incredibly depressing attitude to have.

Gita7007, I agree with all of your posts.

A few posters on here seem to think that the young lady is

"Guilty until proven innocent"

In a court of law she may well have been found innocent. However

^ However in trying understand why CPS took on the case, all you can do is look at all available evidence and discuss is validity. Which is what is being done.

mengog there is rather a lot more going on here than trying to understand why the CPS took on the case. There have been several confident proclamations that this man is not only innocent but has been deprived of his opportunity to be vindicated in court. We have heard that he is apparently incredulous and exasperated and would have preferred to go to court rather than have his name cleared in the court of the Daily Mail. Some remarkable insights there into the mind of a man who has not faced one question in court.

The DPP has described this case as one of the most difficult she has seen and is investigating the decision by the CPS to take over and continue the case. If only she had read the Daily Mail article before she made that statement, it would all have been cleared up by now.

Completely agree flora

I don't see much wrong with stating this man is innocent. He was investigated and no charges were brought. I think saying this man isn't a rapist is more accurate than saying he is.

I don't see much wrong with stating this man is innocent. He was investigated and no charges were brought.

Because the latter statement does not necessarily lead to the former. I'm not sure anyone on this thread has said this man actually is a rapist. It's only this man's cheerleaders who seem able to confidently state that he is innocent and she is guilty of perverting the course of justice.

Quinn-
thank you for your comments above- much appreciated.
And I too am somewhat saddened/alarmed at the auto bias demonstrated by some posters- though Im sure their heart is in right place and its by definition an emotive subject.

Mengog-
Absolutely right- you can only go on the available evidence.
If you consider the texts, the CPS views, the CCTV, her lying to her friends, her erratic behaviour, the rumour mongering after being dumped, the suicide threats, the actual suicide prior to the court case- well most would consider him a clearly innocent man who was a victim of a mentally unstable or vindictive person.
On the other hand maybe there are details or nuances to the evidence or even missing evidence altogether which might alter that view.

Flora,
Nobody can state with 100% confidence of innocence or guilt and no justice system is perfect.
However, as it stands many would say its very likely indeed he was innocent and she was guilty.
Its highly probable she would have been convicted but would have escaped jail due to mitigation related to her mental health issues.

Its highly probable she would have been convicted but would have escaped jail due to mitigation related to her mental health issues

Experienced trial lawyers in possession of all the evidence and having interviewed witnesses would hesitate to make such a statement. The DPP described it as one of the most difficult cases she has seen. Your insistence on his innocence and her guilt looks silly.

Flora,
And in turn I think your insistence that people are not allowed to form conclusions from reported evidence is … very silly… squared…. :)

Its true that credibility of testimony can be tested in court.
I have a suspicion that a bipolar woman, who lied to her friends about her sexual side business and sent regular suicide threats may not have appeared as the most reliable witness.

But even if she was on a good day- its very difficult to explain away texts saying its the 'best sex of my life', when you later claim that the same sex was a result of drugging, illegal imprisonment and rape.

Nor arrange to meet up with your rapist the following day at a sex shop to buy a range of erotic merchandise.

Now if it emerges that there is an important piece of new evidence that sheds a different flight on the matter then fine - we can all shift our views once more.

ps and I again would ask what you think would constitute evidence of a false allegation?

I don't have a horse in this race either way, but I am somewhat saddened to learn her status as a secret erotic massage provider (or whatever, I'm not sure of the correct nomenclature there), being some sort of evidence that she wasn't raped.

I'd like to zero in on that, and say a chaste nun can be raped, a devoted wife and mother can be raped, or a full out streetwalking lady of the night can be raped. What one's own sexual proclivities are have no bearing.

Like I said I won't weigh in, because I know neither of them, but I reserve the right to feel saddened at a young woman's death. To feel it was a bit of a dick move for her father to name the guy in the media, and to feel it was callous in the extreme for the accused guy to have hounded what turned to be a vulnerable young woman to her death.

If you're innocent fair play to want to clear your name I would want to do much the same, but not by threatening and bullying. That I think is a fundamental feminist point here. Male/female conflicts like this should not be underlined by such if we wish to move forward.

What this guy should have done is hired his lawyers, let them get on with it, and left it with the cps once they took it on. No need to contact his accuser in any way shape or form whatsoever, I think it's all the more sinister in that he knew for a fact she was unstable, that's why he dumped her after all.

He may be innocent, but I doubt he's the sort of man I'd enjoy having a drink with.

Dervel,
I dont think anyone was saying that her being a sex worker (not sure if thats an accurate term here) was evidence that she wasnt raped!
I raised it in my last post in relation to her lying to her friends about her secret life. It also tied in with her visiting him with massage oil for their 1st date and texted him to ask him what his best sexual fantasy was, prior to their 1st date. I raised this in terms of her plausibility as a witness and then the plausibility of his story.

It is sad she has passed- she was intelligent and stunning and had a bright future.
The father was wrong to do what he did I agree- but he will be in deep grief…
I think its harsh to say 'callous' about the guy- he was facing 10-14 years in jail and utter ruination of his character and prospects. And (assuming his story is accurate) he was 100% innocent - how would you react? How would anyone?

Were it not for certain texts she sent (or other details) he might be in prison right now… or maybe we would be talking about his suicide?…

I raised this in terms of her plausibility as a witness and then the plausibility of his story

But Gita, you are not being asked to sit on the jury. No one is really interested in the opinion of one random person on the internet (i.e. everyone on this thread). Your decision isn't key here. Whether or not she is a plausible witness in the legal sense is only relevant in a court case which never happened. It is not relevant to you personally passing judgement upon her after reading a Daily Mail article.

And if you don't want to be accused of buying into common rape myths, you're not doing yourself any favours by trying to paint her as lacking in credibility as a witness in such a court case based on her seeking out sex, being flirtatious and living a secret life and concealing it from her friends, as everyone here is aware that those myths and perceptions have influence in the legal process, and that they prevent rape victims accessing justice every single day. And that's the exact same trick that rapists' law teams pull every single day.

venus,
It may have escaped your notice but some of us here (and that includes you) are discussing the case.
And we are entitled to our opinions.

All the evidence is important in a trial and credibility and plausibility are there for a jury to consider.
Chief amongst the jury's considerations would be the 'best sex' texts in relation to a subsequent rape allegation (which had aggravating factors as part of the claim).

I dont mind if you think there are rape myths flying around on here- it seems to me that for a few posters, quoting the weather report is akin to indulging rape myths, but there you go.

And I would, I think for the 4th time, entreat you (or anyone else) to explain what you think would constitute evidence indicating a false rape claim?

And we are entitled to our opinions.

And they all mean absolutely fuck all. And I fully acknowledged that includes me, so don't pretend I think any different.

And I would, I think for the 4th time, entreat you (or anyone else) to explain what you think would constitute evidence indicating a false rape claim?

Since you clearly think you have an extremely important point to make, I'll play. For me, evidence indicating a false rape claim would be either a direct admission that a false rape claim had been made, or a fully checked out alibi for the alleged perpetrator or real material evidence (not based on rape myth influenced speculations) that the alleged victim had definitely lied about what happened. And even then I'd be cautious before deciding whether a person should face a criminal prosecution and try to understand why and whether it was malicious.

gita you and others are taking as gospel truth the alleged rapist's claim that there were "best sex" texts, and that they were sent the day after the alleged rape. Also that the alleged victim was selling tantric services online. Also the massage oil, etc etc - we have only his word (quoted in an interview in a tabloid with a terrible reputation for publishing falsehoods) to support any of these "facts".

Most of us on this thread are saying that nothing has been tested in court, the alleged victim is dead so her version of events will never be proved or disproved, and we can't therefore judge what actually happened.

But you're determined to believe him. Why, exactly?

Venus,
If you are that hostile to opinions one wonders why you are on a discussion board.

So the only evidence that you would accept 'might' indicate a false allegation is:

a) the accuser admits the accusation is false
b) there is a cast iron alibi which proves that there was no physical contact
c) material evidence proving lying

Wow!- tough crowd folks…!

But I'd like to explore c)
… hmm.. how about a conversation where a witness hears her saying it was the best sex ever and she's looking forward to buying sex toys with her new lover…. or… better still… how about TEXT messages and a CCTV tape showing the same… or is that not material enough for you?

Amethyst,
Actually I have repeatedly said that if he or the DM made up the texts issue then that might well put a different light on things.

But are you saying that if these things ARE true you would finally accept its more than likely he is completely innocent? :)

Its an interesting but sad story where possibly excessively zealous police staff put an innocent man through hell and might have precipitated a terrible injustice. A woman who likely was very ill didnt get the support she needed and the pressure of possible incarnation and/or secret life exposure led to her taking her own life.

I think the CPS did the right thing in taking on the false allegation case- everyone has the right to clear their names if wrongly accused of a crime and of course people should be held to account if they make up stories to hurt people or pervert the course of justice.