Gender abolition

[Damsili]

On another thread a few posters have enthused about the abolition of gender. I wonder how many people see this as the ultimate goal of feminism?

Also, is there room for people who are broadly content with the idea of femininity and masculinity being separate things, but want better treatment of women? Do the abolitionists accept this point of view?

Rabbit It sounds as if you are saying there is no difference between male and female brains. Can you confirm what you mean, because that wouldn't be a true statement.

It's up to you what you identify as and I'm not suggesting otherwise.

Not inherrently, as in 'naturally' - but we have made it so.

Yep, that's socialised gender, the thing I'd like to see gone.

gender doesn't physically exist - with the conviction that one might say the earth goes around the sun - as far as I'm aware this is merely a hopeful bit of speculation

There is no proof of any difference in personality or behaviour between the sexes that isn't socialised.

Most of us do define ourselves by our sexuality to a degree

I meant to say that most of us define ourselves by our sex. I typed sexuality by accident; it still bears true, but it's not what I meant.

DS, in Africa I believe there are tribes where men adorn their faces with paint and/or scars. In the 17th century aristocratic men had powdered faces and powdered wigs. I don't think being decorative is linked to biological sex.

It's not possible to test for differences in male brains and female brains on unsocialised males and females using unsocialised researchers. Someone mentioned a documentary recently where adults were told the baby they were playing with was female when actually male (or vice versa) and this influenced the toys they presented to the baby.

Please insert "inherently" before "linked" above.

Where Obviously the fact that women give birth should mean some difference in the way they deal with things like ML. Because childbirth should mean some time to recover and if a woman wants to BF then she should be given time to do so, it is better for the health of both mother and baby to have some ML. That has nothing to do with gender and everything to do with sex.

I'm confused. Isn't our sexuality whether we are gay , straight, bi , whatever.

I don't define myself by that . And the are some people for whom this is fluid . Or for children who have not yet worked out how they feel

My sexuality is different from my sex .

Damsili -you keep making these sweeping statement that are not even true about everyone on this thread, let alone all women across all cultures across all time

I don't wear make up because it's a fundamental part of me. I wear it soemtimes because I feel under pressure to conform to some extent to the gender roles ascribed to me as a women of my age in my culture. I'm sure if I lived in another place and time I wouldn't do it

This seems really obvious to me.im amazed that some people think that shaving your legs , wearing make up and straightening your hair is somehow part of your brain , that you are compelled to do it by oestrogen

It sounds as if you are saying there is no difference between male and female brains. Can you confirm what you mean, because that wouldn't be a true statement.

There may be physical differences, but there is no proof these translate to behavioural or personality differences.

I agree, gender is a huge barrier to equality.*

That's why focusing on gender seems wrong to me and maybe why the emphasis in law has been more on equal opportunity than gender equality. What we should aim at imvho is giving the same value to people's roles so for eg a binman, a mother, a doctor, a pop star and a care worker are all valued equally. But that's almost as impossible.

I think it would be better to do both tbh.

Damsili - my sex is female. My sexuality is the ability to have erotic and sexual feelings. My sexual orientation is whether I am gay, lesbian, bi, submissive, dominant or whatever.

I think sexuality was an autocorrect moment for sex!

There is no proof of any difference in personality or behaviour between the sexes that isn't socialised.

That may be true - but it's still hypothesis . There are differences between male and female brains. There are differences in the chemical activity in men and women - and that affects behaviour - testosterone etc. Do these differences arise purely because of socialisation? Personally, I very much doubt it. However, I acknowledge that I know very little in scientific terms. The thing is, to me, the social construct argument seems to get pushed not because science has discovered it to be so, but because it suits the feminist agenda.

FrauHelga

Thanks.

1057: " Most of us do define ourselves by our sexuality to a degree

I meant to say that most of us define ourselves by our sex. I typed sexuality by accident; it still bears true, but it's not what I meant. "

Damsili - xposted - I answered the phone in the middle of typing that.

Yonic I didn't mean to suggest that there was a reason for that 'decorative' element. I was only saying that, as it stands within the culture that you and I are familiar with, it is so. That being the case, is it unreasonable that society should focus on women's appearance more?

I think we've too many conversations going on now!

DS, it's an unknowable. You can hypothesise either way, you can't test an unsocialised brain. That's not a political statement.

However, the female body and the male body remain visibly male or female regardless of socialisation. I don't have to hypothesise that either way; it's true.

" is it unreasonable that society should focus on women's appearance more?"

Again, I don't understand what you are trying to say. Yes, within our society, women's appearance probably matters more. How does that link back to gender being a tangible beyond biological sex?

Kristina

I haven't suggested that women shave their legs because of oestrogen. Granted I did colour what I said by accidentally typing sexuality, but I think you may have misconstrued what I'm saying.

There are two conversations happening now; one concerns male and female brains and the other concerns the hard fact that, in general women spend more time and money on their appearance than men within our current culture. I totally accept that society puts more pressure on women to do so, but that still isn't the answer to my question.

It gets very hard to communicate with all these caveats and rabbit-holes

That may be true - but it's still hypothesis

That's the same argument religious people use to defend the idea of their being a god, you cannot prove something doesn't exist.

The social construct thing gets "pushed" because it's always nice for facts to be acknowledged over mythology.

Do these differences arise purely because of socialisation? Personally, I very much doubt it. However, I acknowledge that I know very little in scientific terms.

It is well worth reading up on the tests that have been done, while many have been done claiming to have proved innate differences the interesting bit to look at is how little control there is in the tests, and how they don't control for variables such as socialisation. The amount of them who go into these tests expecting to see one result and then, unsurprisingly, get exactly the result they wanted.

" I totally accept that society puts more pressure on women to do so, but that still isn't the answer to my question."

Ok, then what is your question, I think I missed it, apologies.

That being the case, is it unreasonable that society should focus on women's appearance more?

Well yes. I don't think saying "we've been socialised this way, so it's totally reasonable to treat the sexes differently to the disadvantage of one" is a good thing, I think it's a cop out tbh.

But if gender gets in the way of equality, and yet no one wants to give up their gender, then don't we need to find another way? Because if the message is that people can only get equality if they fundamentally change themselves, then you get a lot more resistance than if the message is that we can keep the things that make us ourselves and also have the chance to do things we want to and be treated fairly by other people.

Bella

That's the same argument religious people use to defend the idea of their being a god, you cannot prove something doesn't exist.

etc

Yes, absolutely - all I'm saying is that:

Fully developed male female brains have differences. As classes of people, the two sexes do behave in different ways for real tangible reasons. However, I accept that those real tangible reasons may well have developed because of social reasons rather than through hard biological wiring. However, that is something that can be neither proved nor disproved.

Is that acceptable?

Damsili -I don't think these ARE two separate conversations

If there is such a thing as a female brain, then surely I shave my legs because my female brain tells me that smooth legs are important and I just have so much fun shaving them ?

And not because that's the gender role that is imposed on women in the UK in 2014.

And wouldn't all women across the world with their equally email brain be doing the same ?