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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Gender abolition

725 replies

Damsili · 03/11/2014 01:24

On another thread a few posters have enthused about the abolition of gender. I wonder how many people see this as the ultimate goal of feminism?

Also, is there room for people who are broadly content with the idea of femininity and masculinity being separate things, but want better treatment of women? Do the abolitionists accept this point of view?

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YonicScrewdriver · 06/11/2014 08:19

Phaedra, not just on this thread though - I've not seen you agree with anything yet on FWR, though i may have missed it.

What problems do you think are important for FWR, which parts of feminism interest you?

PhaedraIsMyName · 06/11/2014 08:25

Yonic are you only allowed on here if you agree with the general consensus?

PhaedraIsMyName · 06/11/2014 08:27

Oh come off it re Andy McNab. His work comes in for just as much criticism as chick lit.

YonicScrewdriver · 06/11/2014 08:30

Phaedra, not at all! Which is what I was trying to make clear with my second sentence, maybe badly! But if you have disagreed with most things you've seen so far, I'm interested as to what areas of feminism you do think are a key focus.

PhaedraIsMyName · 06/11/2014 08:31

But public perception, and the perception of the male fans, is that it's a male thing

And the proof beyond you stating that is what exactly?

BobbyDarin · 06/11/2014 08:32

"There are some genres of fiction that are generally assumed to be 'for men' like SF and thrillers

Sorry but that is yet another made up statement. Who assumes that? Apart from whoever posted it?"

motherboard.vice.com/en_uk/blog/feminist-science-fiction-primer

io9.com/5967253/female-science-fiction-and-fantasy-authors-still-using-male-pseudonyms

en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Women_in_speculative_fiction

And this from the Encyclopedia of Science Fiction.

"Traditionally sf has been a puritanical and male-oriented literature." - See more at: sf-encyclopedia.com/entry/sex#sthash.CWrYnKff.dpuf

almondcakes · 06/11/2014 08:32

Beachcomber, I would say that traditional feminism believed that there was a gender hierarchy and that it should be abolished. That is to say that activities when done by men were given time, status, resources, freedom and attention. The core 'value' of feminism was them to give whatever was done by women equal time, status, resources, freedom and attention.

So if we were to apply this value to the Sahel, we would prioritise all those things done by women:

  1. Clean drinking water made available near to dwellings, not unclean water from miles away.
  2. Health care.
  3. Childcare
  4. Care of the sick and elderly.
  5. Resource provision for farmers of marginal land to reduce desertification and increase productivity.
  6. Provision for the poorest.
  7. End forced marriage.
  8. End chattel slavery.

And by following that 'value' feminism works towards the UN's recommendations for the Sahel. And every time it starts on one of them, it immediately makes things better for women. And that is abolishing the gender hierarchy.

And the same for the UK. What are the kinds of task women do most that we should prioritise because women's work has lower value? Health, education, care of children and the elderly, the voluntary sector working with excluded groups, provision for the poorest.

And feminism keeps doing this, and where it does any of these things, things get better for women.

But now people are using abolishing gender to mean something different. That other meaning is gender neutrality. Men and women will be attempt to be culturally the same and so will be more equal. And the 'value' of that will be? The things in society that will be prioritised will be... we don't know. People are just going to be themselves. So maybe we will prioritise health, or maybe we will prioritise war and high risk behaviour in financial institutions, and the Sahel can prioritise war as well or maybe it will go for health. But none of that really matters, because if we do have more more high risk financial disasters and less health care, at least men and women will die from lack of health care in equal numbers. It doesn't matter what the 'values' are, as long as we are equal.

But of course we haven't got there yet. So how are we going to get there, given there's no road map as no post hunter gatherer society has reached gender neutrality or got very near it? Well, we could maybe look at other examples where a group with low status and a group with high status try to get rid of differences between them. Whose behaviour does everybody take up? The behaviour of the group with the most power. The low status group has to assimilate. So the likely outcome is that we all have to say that what the males used to mainly do is the important stuff that we now all have as our values. And in the process the most vulnerable of our group don't get to assimilate. They stay as an even more marginalised other for a long time.

And if health care, education and care of the vulnerable have been the tasks mostly done by women in society we know of, it would a big deal to give them up and say something else is more important. So I say abolish the gender hierarchy as the priority. The whole of society then gives increased status to those things mostly done by women. And when women have equal status to men, then we talk about the complete integration of two equal groups. But I see no benefit in assimilating as the less powerful group and dressing it up as gender neutrality.

And every time I hear somebody complaining about girly girls, mums, trivialise child care or appear on this section and compare women who don't want to give up their maternity leave for their husband to slaves who don't want freedom, I think this is assimilation, and marginalising a whole load of women in the process.

RabbitOfNegativeEuphoria · 06/11/2014 08:37

Not one single poster here has proposed that men and women should try to be culturally the same.

FloraFox · 06/11/2014 08:38

Phaedra accidentally agreed with feminists on the prostitution/sex worker thread. She hasn't been back since that was pointed out.

FloraFox · 06/11/2014 08:44

almond I didn't say it doesn't matter what the values are. The issues you mentioned also have broader political and economic considerations.

There could be a non-patriarchal society that is right wing libertarian in economic policy or socialist or whatever. I don't think it is desirable to fragment feminist activism so that you only work towards all your political goals at the same time. My preference is for broader allegiances towards the goals that are shared even if not all goals are shared.

I also didn't say people should be gender neutral.

PhaedraIsMyName · 06/11/2014 08:45

Bobby pseudo intellectual articles from dubious sources do not convince me.

The real life experiences of spending a lot of time browsing in the sci-fi and crime section of Waterstones or attending events at book festivals featuring those writers where there is not the slightest indication these genres are "for men" convince me.

PhaedraIsMyName · 06/11/2014 08:47

Oh thank you Flora. Wow can I be part of the sisterhood now? Really I might be clever enough or maybe that was just an accident ?

Beachcomber · 06/11/2014 08:48

I know very little about SF and I don't read it, but now you mention it, I thought it was a predominantly male readership. I have no idea where I got that from.

Phaedra, I have no issue with being disagreed with when there is a bit of substance to the disagreement. You say that I invented/made up what I said about breastfeeding but you don't substantiate what you say at all. The marketing of manmade (literally!) formula as superior to breast milk features in countless books, articles, etc. You simply asserting that I invented the whole idea for the purpose of this thread is a pretty thin argument!

another example

FloraFox · 06/11/2014 08:49

Bobby said "generally assumed" to be for men and specifically pointed out that this is not actually true. It does look like you are taking a contrarian stance across a number of threads.

FloraFox · 06/11/2014 08:51

Cross-posted with Phaedra. Why so chippy?

Damsili · 06/11/2014 08:55

Chick-lit is denigrated, to the point that the genre is now barely acknowledged to exist

I'm not sure it's barely acknowledged - 50 SoG anyone? It was rightly denigrated because it was both appallingly misiogynistic AND quite dreadfully written. I know! I got suckered into getting it on Kindle just to see what the fuss was about - and it wasn't even 'so bad it was good'!

I completely agree with Rabbit, however, that the same level of denigration does not exist with Andy McNab type thrillers which every bit as 'trashy' as a genre.

Rabbit I am am sorry you have taken offence at some of the things I have said and I hope you are not discouraged. People may be Hmm with me, but you can't doubt that the majority here are acting in good faith and have useful relevant discussions. I also didn't read Bobby's Grazia comment as a joke that was aimed at you iyswim.

OP posts:
PhaedraIsMyName · 06/11/2014 08:57

Oh and Flora since you appear to be tracking me I've also commented on the thread about Cyrus /Rhianna. What shocked me there is the ignorance of many posters on the state of contemporary music. Few of them seem to realise there is a whole world of exciting, innovative music, including music made by women, outside of mainstream packaged products.

PhaedraIsMyName · 06/11/2014 08:59

I have a friend who is heavily involved in sci-fi , goes to conventions Novocon (?) and the like. Nothing I've heard from her supports your case.

PhaedraIsMyName · 06/11/2014 09:02

Flora - chippy because your post about "accidentally" agreeing was intended to be patronising/ rude. Fine but please don't disingenuously back track.

Beachcomber · 06/11/2014 09:04

But I see no benefit in assimilating as the less powerful group and dressing it up as gender neutrality.

Neither do I, almondcakes.

I'm not arguing for gender neutrality. I'm arguing that gender is a hierarchy and that it is an unjust, inhumane and stupid one. And it is wasteful.

FloraFox · 06/11/2014 09:06

Phaedra you've been all over FWR recently pointing out that everyone is wrong. I'm not tracking you. I saw your posts on that thread. Of course there are lots of non-mainstream musicians but the ones that have cultural impact, particularly on girls and young women are the mainstream ones.

You say few of the posters realise this. I might borrow your style and ask you to prove that however I know you can't. They were discussing mainstream music and what women need to be to be successful Not whether women need to be half naked in order to be artistically valued.

FloraFox · 06/11/2014 09:07

Phaedra how did you determine my intention?

almondcakes · 06/11/2014 09:19

Flora, it definitely isn't a good idea to fragment Feminist activism. But It is fine for there to be different strands.

But I am not proposing that we all must follow a certain set of goals and feminism. I have many goals I believe in for society that are not part of feminism.

What I am saying is that Beach's concept of abolition of gender meaning abolition of the hierarchy has to logically include the value of prioritising what women do, and that logically leads to those development goals, and that takes immediate effect. You don't have to wait for the perfect society before anything happens; it will always improve the imperfect one for women.

None of that is true for trying to create a gender neutral society (or something approaching one). It is a wholly separate issue.

Beach's kind of feminism is one belief, and the gender neutral thing is another. I am sure believers in either can work together on loads of feminist stuff, but they are two different things.

RabbitOfNegativeEuphoria · 06/11/2014 09:28

Phaedra I have been attending and running Sci Fi conventions since the 80s. Those writer friends I talked about? All of them are genre/Sci Fi fantasy writers. Some are award winning, some of them you will have seen on the telly. Most are men some are women. The point isn't that women aren't there, reading, writing, watching, because we are we always have been, it's that the male fandoms deny our existence even when looking at us, right there, they deny and complain about the prevalence of women writers and fans, they rewrite history (I've watched documentaries on telly about a certain Sci FI area where it's claimed that women weren't fans 'in the 80s' by people who weren't there, when I was and I know it's not true). Things are changing now but slowly and some of the recent controversies including but not limited to gamergate show that the deniers aren't giving up without a fight. And the constant stream of news and comment articles implying that there has been an influx of women into these areas, that we haven't always been there, is deeply annoying and adds to the denial of our existence.

You are wrong and since this is something I know a huge amount about, I know rather than just suspect that you are wrong. You clearly have an agenda but it's not going to fly in this case.

RabbitOfNegativeEuphoria · 06/11/2014 09:32

I'm fairly sure 50 shades is porn not chick lit (chick lit is more your Marion Keyes sort of stuff, isn't it?). We could talk about the attitudes towards 50 shades and other fan fiction stuff which many feminists believe are coloured by their being a mainly female phenomenon but I'd rather not since I'm probably not 'with the sisterhood' on that one. And again - most commenters on FF think it started with AO3 when actually it's been around since TOS trek and probably much earlier.

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