Gender abolition

[Damsili]

On another thread a few posters have enthused about the abolition of gender. I wonder how many people see this as the ultimate goal of feminism?

Also, is there room for people who are broadly content with the idea of femininity and masculinity being separate things, but want better treatment of women? Do the abolitionists accept this point of view?

What would you like to get out of this thread?

Hazchem don't flog that old cliche.

I have been responding to your attempts to twist my meaning.

I think I might actually hide FWR after this poisonous experience. I've always dipped in from time to time but this is just silly.

There doesn't seem to be much desire to be more inclusive if this is representative.

'Coda' FGS

Er hem.. Opened the other thread initially, it didn't make any sense to me, so swiftly moved on, then spotted this second one. I'm afraid Arsenic has a point.

Just a short paragraph explaining what gender abolition is would do.

I think that is the problem, education. Many people see "gender abolition" and think it means getting rid of men and women's physical differences.

Which isn't what it means at all.

I'm afraid Arsenic has a point

Erm thanks (I think)

The thing is ArsenicSoup your approach is making me the same.

Your suggestion that I shouldn't talk about something I'm interested in because someone else might not have the same knowledge I have is really limiting.
if you look at my first post you'll notice i use the term liberal feminism. I used that specific term because the Op was asking if there is room for people who might not want to see the end of gender. I thought by using the the term liberal feminism it had the potential for further discussion of different branches of feminism and how they see gender or a point for further discussion.

Arsenic you really do seem determined to derail FWR. It's also worth noting that the OP hasn't stated whether he/she believes in it or just wants to goad feminists into chanting "down with gender" and look like idiots. Judging by posts on another thread I'd guess that is the motivation.

Not wanting to get into a bunfight but I don't get much from the OP either. First of all, people use gender in different ways and I'm not sure how it is being used here. I'm also having difficulty with the word 'abolition' in the context of gender. And I say the above as someone who has been posting in this section for years and who is familiar with a fair bit of feminist theory.

I think the OP is new to the section though (apologies if you are a name changer), so perhaps, given a chance they will come back and clarify/expand on the OP.

In trying to answer the OP, (in so far as I understand it) the goal of my feminism is to liberate girls and women from male domination, gender (as I understand it, that is as a socially constructed hierarchy) will cease to exist as a meaningful concept. But I think we are so far off achieving this and I sometimes wonder if it is achievable that it isn't something I spend much time thinking about. What do you think, OP? It is customary on here to give one's own opinion and not just fire questions at people.

Your suggestion that I shouldn't talk about something I'm interested in because someone else might not have the same knowledge I have is really limiting.

I find that to be a completely perverse interpretation of everything I have said, but you have stuck with it throughout so I expect you will persist.

messy Is that because most people don;t see the difference between sex and gender?

Arsenic you really do seem determined to derail FWR.

Piffle. What earthly basis do you have for that?

First time I have posted here for a week or so, probably the fourth time in as many months or more, first time in this particular NN variant...

And I second Hazchem. Surely we should be able to discuss what we want. The use of esoteric language doesn't make it inaccessible if everyone is willing to elucidate when asked.

messy Exactly. I probably shouldn't be on this thread because I have other issues which come higher up for me than gender equality,, and some of my priorities conflict with a whole lot of feminist agenda items, so I'll bow out before it gets murky in here.

well that's how it feels Arsenic. It migth not be your intention but that is how it coming across.

Arsenic. Because you've spent more time criticising people for being interested in the subject (hell you even started another thread to price your point) than you have actually engaging with the subject.

What I will say is there have been a number of people of the main boards recently (victim blaming, slut shaming type threads and others) saying things such as;

"I feel like the scales are falling from my eyes at the age of 25/30/35. I can suddenly see gender bias and skewed cultural representations everywhere. Where should I go to learn more?"

They aren't considering FWR, posters aren't really suggesting FWR (although I did last week). Then I saw a snippet or two of the 'why do more posters not venture into FWR' debate. Then I wandered in here this morning and thought 'aha'.

Because you've spent more time criticising people for being interested in the subject

Nope, not once. Read again (sorry I know it's early).

Hell I am interested in the subject. I am talking about making the subject even faintly intelligible to others.

Hazchem, yes most definitely.

To me, sex is the biological reality of being male or female. Gender is the social construct.

Having a vagina=sex. Wearing makeup and shaving because it's the current convention to do so = gender.

Ok, well, I too am one of the people who find/found FWR hard work and was put off posting.

I'm trying not to be so ...

Can you explain exactly what you mean by gender abolition and how you would see that manifest itself in wider society?

Also, I don't understand why or how there could even be a need for a discussion as to whether or not there would be room (in here? in feminism? not sure - again could you explain please?) someone who wants better treatment for women. Could you please explain?

Arsenic. Then talk about the subject, please! Tell us what you think about that.

And if I don't understand what you're saying, I'll ask.

Yes I might venture back later. Glad we finally got over the hump.

I have a train to rush for now.

education I totally mis read messys post and thought she mean education as in leanrign and not your name.

I guess in terms of gender abolition I would see it as the freeing up of men and women to just be themselves rather then fit within stereotypes of masculine and feminine. I don't know what that would look like but I guess we would have far less of the "boys will be boys" and "girls don't climb trees". You'd also get I'd think equal pay between the sexes but you might also get a valuing of things which aren't currently valued such as housework and childcare.

In general it's not something I think as a hugely important goal but I do work a little at it.

FrauHelga I think the initial post was asking if gender abolition is the goal of feminism then is there room for feminists that don't see it as a goal.

I think there is. Probably as part of liberal feminist traditions which tend to seek change within the current status quo rather then a change of the system.
I personally want a change in the whole system but see changes to the current system as really really important.

Hazchem - ok, so in order for me to understand your first sentence, you're going to have to explain to me what exactly gender abolition is, and how you see that manifesting itself in wider society.

FrauHelga, I really want to discuss this but have to whizz to work (late already- damn MN!).

In brief the way I understand it: sex = biological. Gender = expectations places on men and women according to their biological sex.

So- eg. women are expected to be more caring than men. Men are expected to cry less. Or the different expectations of personal grooming placed on men and women.

I think the manifestation of that would just be people following their individual paths rather than the norms placed by society on their sex. Men knitting if they want to. Women becoming astro physicists. Without feeling they're doing something slightly odd.

Talk to you later!

I wouldn't normally do this, but I'm seeing a few people on FWR at the moment who seem to have popped in inspired by some of the "why don't people visit FWR" threads... and then I'm seeing those people put off by one or two posts from people who also aren't regulars and saying "bah, this is why I avoid FWR"

DS hasn't been posting in FWR long and many of her/his posts have been fairly combative (which I've already said to DS - waves). That's completely her/his right of course and posters have been engaging with her/him.

But please, if you've popped in? Give a few threads a try - don't be put off by just one thread or one poster.