Gender abolition

[Damsili]

On another thread a few posters have enthused about the abolition of gender. I wonder how many people see this as the ultimate goal of feminism?

Also, is there room for people who are broadly content with the idea of femininity and masculinity being separate things, but want better treatment of women? Do the abolitionists accept this point of view?

Ok FrauHelga. I shall take that in good faith then. I hope you'll understand if I'm a little jaded about posters making me and my style the focus. I'm also shocked no one has condemned the spiteful insinuations of rosdearg and I'm wary of what that suggests.

As to my own identity, I am not going to submit to the demands of aggressive posters who have already made clear that if I answer:

woman - they will suggest I am lying.
man - they will use that to undermine my credibility.

Although, frankly, credibility shouldn't be an issue. As I said yesterday - and as someone proved last night with their peurile Cinderella post - I understand some of what informs this behaviour. But there is a limit. None of this a helpful to the thread and I'm surprised those posters haven't simply decided that discretion is the better part of valour. As I said, I am wary of what that suggests. But... can we move on?

I hope you'll agree that, even if my language is clumsy, I am trying to add to the weight of agreement about analysing gender with a view to diminishing it. That, after all, was rather the point of the OP.

Now who's policing the thread, Damsili? "can we move on?"

Can't you see that comes across as passive aggressive and patronising in the extreme?

And I don't agree with your last paragraph, no. Not at all. Diminishing the language you have used, and diminishing the things you have said about me is not something I'm going to collude in.

FrauHelga requesting that we move on from addressing my own personal shortcomings is not policing a thread. Repeatedly picking at the language I am using, absolutely is policing tone. But whatever. Continue if you think its edifying, useful and acceptable. You asked me to take your posts in good faith and then revert when I respond. I won't make the same mistake again.

Please point out exactly where I asked you to take my posts in good faith?

Please do not insult my intelligence. Your behaviour, repeatedly, on this thread has shown quite clearly that you have no intention of taking my posts in good faith.

"None of you have addressed how you will determine whether I'm expressing myself or simply being constrained by the patriarchy."

Phaedra - none of us has the right or the inclination to do that.
We can talk about societal pressures etc without a. trying to say exactly what makes you behave as you do, as an individual, or b. (still less!) saying what you should do.

You sound fine with your choice of clothes, so that's ok.

If you were not, if you had niggling doubts, a sense of being under pressure that you couldn't quite articulate, perhaps a thread like some on the FWR board, that names some of the pressures, would be useful.
It still wouldn't tell you what to do though. You might get suggestions (like Frau's excellent "or you could wear a tux!) but only you could decide how to manage the influences, risks, rewards, pleasures, and pressures, in your own life.

But - people do start threads about personal stuff. It wouldn't be surprising to see a thread in FWR entitled "I hate wearing posh frocks and my career pretty much demands it 6 times a year. What should I do?" You would be quite likely to see that thread in Style and Beauty too. In either case, the people who advise are not judging and have no right to tell the person what to do. But it could be really helpful for that person to see the quandary they are in through a feminist lens and see that this is not just a problem of personal shortcomings (an "imperfect" body and limited budget)

Something that is interesting is the prevelance of androgyny within the narrow confines of fashion. As several people have pointed out, it's perfectly normal for girls and women to wear non-gendered jumpers and jeans as everyday wear - but within the heavily gendered context of fashion and style, there are growing overlaps. Is this a good thing?

What do you think Damsili? Do you think it's a good thing? Why does it have to be a good thing or a bad thing? Why can't it just be a thing? Is fashion and style only what is worn in a gendered context? Isn't fashion and style what is worn everyday?

I'm conflicted. On the one hand if there was a fashion for androgynous styles then that would conform to the idea that it was a matter of choice and men and women faced the same choices and same judgements. However, that fashion would be coming from an industry that has huge misogynistic elements and, being a fashion, it could easily pass. Overall, we are surely looking at enduring reductions of prescribed styles for women and an increase in the non-gendered aspects of all these decorative practices?

The only person who has been rude about other peoples clothing is the poster who said that jeans and baggy jumpers were ugly . That's what I wear most of the time I'm at home and I don't thing either I or my clothing are ugly. Thanks for that

Damsili -you said down thread that there is a big gap between this thread and real life. Well there's isn't for me, because I'm a woman.

I feel under pressure to conform to society's expectation of how I should dress and groom myself as a women of my age and background in my job

Not just that I should spend time and money doing it, but i should enjoy it, it's fun, pampering and part of being a woman .well it's none of these things for me

I am uncomfortable with the fact that most men think I'm doing this for their benefit, that I'm presenting myself for their approval or approbation . That I am judged for " not making an effort" or , conversely " trying too hard "

I'm just about to go out for a run . I live in the country so I'm lucky to be able to wear what is comfortable and safe. Y'know, like a male runner.

If I lived in the city if have to worry about what clothes would conceal my body, and be afraid of comments from passing pedestrians and drivers, who would shout and leer at me . I might decide to wear a hat or glasses to conceal my face. I'd have to think about where and when it was safe to run.

I've never met a male runner who ever has to think of these things. He can wear and do what he likes

So this might be a fun theoretical debate for you but for me, it's my life . It's choices I have to make every day , balancing my autonomy , my right to wear what I like and find comfortable to do the things I like to do and my feminine role

Style is personal. Fashion is ephemeral. Uniform is the problem. Both men and women suffer from uniform requirements, to be fair. I know many men who loath the office uniform of suit and tie. Uniform requirements are diminishing (you don't just see them in the workplace you see them in so many other contexts - the school gate, leisure activities (eg concerts. I don't mean sports kit), 'formal' events etc). I really wouldn't have a problem if the prevailing fashion was for clothes I didn't want to wear - fashion can always be bucked. It's uniform codes, written and unwritten, that need to change. fashion is art and that has its own freedom and should be left alone.

Kristina The gap is in the relative level of discourse regarding gender; that's actually quite clear from what was written.

It's also clear that I agree with what you've written about time, money and expectations.

Well both these things might be clear to you but they are not to me

Damsili - could you please explain what you mean by relative level of discourse, relative to what?

I think the questions about whether the OP is a man or not are not about credibility. There are quite a few credible and appreciated male posters in this section.

I already said above that (sometimes, not always) I prefer to know who I'm speaking with on feminist subjects. But it isn't about credibility - it is about perspective.

As I said above it is about being informed as to whether a person is sharing and exchanging from the perspective of belonging to the lower status group, women (whether we actually agree or not is immaterial) or from the relative comfort of the higher status group, men.

I think this is natural in any sort of discussion where there are different status groups and therefore experiences and perspectives of oppression. I would expect a non Jew to have a different perspective on antisemitism, an able bodied person to have a different perspective of ableism, a white person to have a different perspective of racism. One can be much more detached when one is in the privileged group. Obviously.

Which all rather reminds me of this blog piece on playing devil's advocate.

www.shakesville.com/2013/10/liss-says-stuff-3-devils-advocate.html

And I'm another poster who found the OP's initial comments in this section unpleasant and jarring. As said upthread, first impressions and all that.

And this;

no one has condemned the spiteful insinuations of rosdearg and I'm wary of what that suggests.

I haven't condemned rosderg's posts because I agree with them. There is no need to be coy about being wary of suggestions, I find plain speaking works better on internet forums.

I too agree with rosderg.

Another one who agrees with rosedearg.

Kristina said I'd referred to a gap between this thread and RL. However, the conversation that referred to a gap, concerned the nature of conversation about gender. One can expect a different conversation about gender on a feminism board than one might get in a RL scenario.

The post in question was at 2129 and I think it's clear what I meant. I apologise if people are not able to understand, but I was addressing Flora and her response indicated that she understood.

Damsili - I'm still not clear. Relative to what?

Are you able to understand that this things that are being discussed here are not theoretical to many posters? It's not academic. It affects the kinds of decisions some of us have to make on a daily basis .

A genderless society would mean that all the women I know who run in the city could wear what they want to. They could run where they want to

They wouldn't be harassed on the street .

They wouldnt have to " buddy up " for safety.

It wouldn't make any difference to make runners. Except perhaps those who want to wear pink clothes but feel they can't now .

So it might be academic to you but it's not to me.

Sorry " to male runners "

Damsili - you have a very didactic posting style. Is that intentional?

I'm a runner. I'm not at all convinced that a society which was more sensible about 'gender' would help me in any way actually - I'd still be sporadically endangered by reckless cyclists and evil dogs. Running is actually an activity where I feel there is little sex based discrimination, to be honest - I wear what I want and it roughly corresponds to what male runners wear. Exceot in my size. Bad dog owners are more likely to be female than male where I live. Reckless cyclists show no obvious sex bias. We've discussed violence upthread and most of us believe that violent arses would still be violent if the social construct of gender based behaviour was dismantled, thus we'd still be as safe or not out on the road as we are now.

Sorry, I meant help me as a runner. Obviously it would help me massively in other ways.

The gap is in the relative level of discourse regarding gender

I'm another poster who didn't understand what this was supposed to mean.

I now see that Damsili is saying that any gap between real life and this thread is because Damsili has decided that this entire section of MN is academic and cut off from real life and real life experiences (after being here for about 5 minutes and as far as I can see not shared any real life experiences nor indeed even got real life enough to say whether they are a woman or not ).

This jumping about from subject to subject and making sweeping judgments about a board that has been running for years, and on which many many women have shared real life perspectives, often on very painful and personal issues, is extremely tiresome to say the least.

KristinaM, very much in agreement with what you say. It's like I said about perspective - this shit actually matters to some of us.