Gender abolition

[Damsili]

On another thread a few posters have enthused about the abolition of gender. I wonder how many people see this as the ultimate goal of feminism?

Also, is there room for people who are broadly content with the idea of femininity and masculinity being separate things, but want better treatment of women? Do the abolitionists accept this point of view?

A lot of people are reading on phones etc, easy to miss.

Yes, perhaps people miss things Yonic. Perhaps that's the reason for the large gap between what I've actually said and what people are suggesting I might have implied. As we both know, I have a relatively short fuse with... well, I won't say it.

But I think that's enough nonsense now and I'm stepping back from it. As I said, I think there's some interesting discussions to be had and I look forward to getting back to them in due course.

Gosh, rosdearg, you really are very... tenacious.

Damsilli why not just answer the question?

You certainly have a manly posting style. (We do have a few male posters on here where you wouldn't know from their style that they are men but generally one can tell.)

"As I said, I think there's some interesting discussions to be had and I look forward to getting back to them in due course."

OK, jolly good

"Gosh, rosdearg, you really are very... tenacious."

I know! I'm proud of it. I am definitely more tenacious than I used to be. It's made me tougher, and generally better at things. Stamina is the secret of success, a lot of the time. You know, 99%of show biz is showing up, or whatever he said.

So, yes, when we're talking about gender, I think it is usually fair to be up front about whether you have any skin in the game.
I am a woman btw

We do have a few male posters on here where you wouldn't know from their style that they are men but generally one can tell

You must see the irony of this statement in the context of what came before it? Maybe I'm a redhead or a Newcastle fan.

I think someone wants to tell me I'm a disgrace to womanhood or something. Difficult to tell when they ask a question, but won't explain the relevance of the answer to their complaint.

Anyway Beachcomber, I am in rough agreement with your longer piece on ladybrain and take the point that it's rather besides the point in some sense. I'd add, though, that a great many people certainly don't agree that the heirarchy is just the natural order of things. Societies may once have done, and in certain cultures they may still, but we should be cogniscent of the fact that it's not a universal truth.

I'm also not sure that I can agree that there are such absolute cases of 'ladybrain is a bit crap' etc; 'women are better listeners', 'men can only do one thing at a time'... there's a long list and better examples I'm sure.

I'm a woman.

Also a woman.

No, I don't want to tell anyone they are a disgrace to anyone, but I am asking because a lot of people (probably mostly women) are working very hard to try to communicate with someone (who I think might be a man) on issues that some see at the root of oppression of women by men; and I think it would be polite to be honest about your gender and / or sex, given the context.

While I am throwing random guesses about, I think it unlikely that you are from Newcastle, or that you have red hair, for various reasons I won't go into.
However I can quickly outline the reasons why I think you are a man:

because you won't answer:
because you have a really pompous way of talking about things you don't know much about;
because you confidently treat everything you weren't expecting as a digression. Because everything you didn't know or hadn't thought of already, is by definition trivial and irrelevant.
Because you profess to be interested in gender while clearly not having thought about it properly for 5 seconds. Because of the absence of subtlety in your analysis.

of course a woman could do all that too. I accept that you might be a woman. You can say you are if you like and I woudln't know anyway

You must see the irony of this statement

Um, no.

Because, you see, I don't think manly posting style is innate.

women are better listeners

You aren't thinking hard enough about this. Ladybrain also means that women are also better at cleaning toilets whilst manlybrain means that men are better at being prime ministers. Lucky women, how positive for them that they are good at doing shitwork!

Women doing listening is a form of care work/wifework that is offloaded onto us. And maybe ladybrain makes women better listeners because we get so much damn practice at it because men tend to dominate speech. Men are used to being listened to by women, lucky women, they sure are good at listening!!!

The only reason I think Damsili ight be a man is the refusal to answer the question. All the rest, including the condescension and the barely veiled rudeness could just as easily come from a woman as from a man.

I've already stated that I'm a woman. And a ginge. And small in size. The latter two things are genuinely more defining than the first one.

men can only do one thing at a time

And this one. I generally see it being used as a way for men to get out of doing things or as an excuse for only doing what they want. I don't see it used as an argument that maybe it makes them crap prime ministers or CEOs.

Poor men, their silly manbrains mean that they find it really hard to look after children whilst doing the dishes cooking dinner filling in forms for school the next day overseeing homework making sure gym kit is ready and listening to others. Women are really good at this sort of multitasking though! It is a ladybrain skill!

I'm ginge too Rabbit [complicated ginger handshake]
I agree that ginger identity is powerful!
(considers musings on trans-gingers and hastily puts the lid on that pandora's box)

we should be cogniscent of the fact that it's not a universal truth.

Really? Where in the world is this utopia?

Because, you see, I don't think manly posting style is innate.

Quite, but there was a lot of excitement about the suggestion that one could tell the difference. People got quite obsessive about aliens, which I thought might be a helpful device, but...

I, clearly, am in agreement with you that there are difference that most people, and even relatively intelligent aliens, could probably pick up on.

Curiously, not some posters though.

women are better listeners. You aren't thinking hard enough about this.

No, Beachcomber I said I agreed with you. I also agree with what followed the quote above. I was merely making the point that you said 'always' and, as ever, the main sticking point between me and other posters is my problem with absolute statements. It could be that you have not seen me post regarding my thoughts on the means and methods by which the patriarchy systematically oppresses women, but I am not taking issue with the general theme of your post.

He didn't say world, Beachcomber. He said Universe. He is on his alien tip again. He has travelled throughout the universe to bring us news of other planets, no sorry, to make us cogniscent of the truths of other planets. Where hierarchy is an occasional, contingent possibility, to be mused upon, with amused detachment

You're assuming, in your analogy, that the alien has a biological sex imperative and that that imperative is based on a binary sexual model.

That is rather arrogant, don't you think? To assume that the whole universe functions on the same binary sex model as our particular piece of rock?

"I think someone wants to tell me I'm a disgrace to womanhood or something"

Absolutely not. We've broadly all drawn the conclusion, based on the available evidence (which is more evidence than aliens would have) that you are male. Of course, maybe we are wrong, as the aliens might also be wrong if they thought dark haired people bore children and light haired people didn't.

There are likely to be as many obvious surface differences between 2 random men or 2 random women as there would be between a random man and a random woman.

You say you have a problem with absolute statements yet your only obvious problem is that you keep making them!

Yonic yeah but you have the cool username.

So he did rosdearg - I wasn't using my lady listening skills properly!

I wasn't being 'obsessed' with the aliens for a second there - perhaps that means I am a man? I did get jolly excited by the idea that we often get male posters speaking down to us and it is about as subtle as waving a big flag so perhaps I'm a woman after all