Gender abolition

[Damsili]

On another thread a few posters have enthused about the abolition of gender. I wonder how many people see this as the ultimate goal of feminism?

Also, is there room for people who are broadly content with the idea of femininity and masculinity being separate things, but want better treatment of women? Do the abolitionists accept this point of view?

The thread is about gender abolition (or reduction in the influence of the concept of gender, as I'd prefer to see it)

That's where most posters are coming from!

"It's extraordinary to see the strength of belief in inherent gender differences, "

Garlic, tbf, I think the majority of the posters on the thread don't hold this belief.

I'd have thought so, Yonic, but was stunned to hear Buffy considered those things everyday commonsense. So I think it's got a lot worse since I was her age.

An I ask (genuine question) what difference do you make between gender and sex and where/ how do you draw the limit, ie when it is a pure sex (biological?) issue and when us it gender (society construct?)
Genuinely interested because my comment about pg and ML can from a discussion I had before on this subject of gender and this was one area where it caused problem, ie how do you draw the limit between what should be done for women only in these circumstances and do you switch from a biological issue to a more societal issue (how long does it take to a woman to recover from pg and birth vs how long is it acceptable to be on ML on a societal pov which are usually different)
I'm pretty sure there are other areas that would trigger similar questions.

Sorry, I should have answered your post in more general terms, Yonic. The vast majority of what I see & hear around me indicates that genderised differences are seen as inherent.

And yet, if you ask most ordinary folks, they will say they see themselves as 'people' first and their sex/gender second.

Second conversation:

Brains, hormones and the difference between fuilly developed men and women.

Garlic, Bella - I don't actually think we're too far apart on this, just phrasing things differently.

Except that this There isn't even a smidgeon of evidence that male & female brains are inherently different isn't true when you're talking about adult brains. Again, I've made it clear that it makes sense that socialisation is an influence. I've just suggested that socialisation being the sole cause is unprovable - the vice versa is also true, of course, as bella points out.

Garlic she said "otherwise". It was a response to people who say "it's all just common sense" when they mean that it is what they commonly observe. Buffy was (I think) explaining how she uses theory to understand that it isn't all just common sense.

It's extraordinary to see the strength of belief in inherent gender differences, which have only arisen during our lifetimes

I certainly don't agree that belief in inherent gender roles have only arisen during our lifetimes. But perhaps you were talking about particular gender differences? I'm not sure which ones.

Re pregnancy & birth, Where - you'll get a lot of different perspectives on this, but here's mine. It's dead simple

Some PEOPLE can have babies. We therefore make allowances for those people while they're reproducing.

Buffy can speak for herself but I'm pretty sure she does not believe in inherent gender differences.

Oh I see!

But out there on the main boards (quiver...) many posters do say "ah, poor men, they can't see dirt" or whatever - so there are lots of people, men and women, to whom the common sense view (as in the commonly held view) is that gender differences are very predictable - and then "common sense" reinforces socialisation and here we go round the mulberry bush again.

Same as it's "common sense" not to wear a skirt as it increases your risk of being raped - you can see the easy "logic" of that position, but going into a smidgen more depth shows thousands of women being raped regardless of clothing, sadly.

"Common sense" doesn't mean truth.

where dismantling gender differences doesn't mean we have to treat people the same where there are different biological needs. Just as we wouldn't start giving cervical smears to men, ML would still need to take account of recovery from PG and birth.

As for brains: There isn't even a smidgeon of evidence that male & female brains are inherently different isn't true when you're talking about adult brains Have you read Delusions of Gender? Cordelia Fine talks about this.

Err, massive x posts!

"And yet, if you ask most ordinary folks, they will say they see themselves as 'people' first and their sex/gender second."

I dunno about this. So much segregation by sex, even benign segregation (let's split the class for this game, boys here, girls there) happens all the time.,.

No, you're right, Flora, I meant specific ones like 'girls prefer pink & glitter' which the most blindingly obvious (and barmy!) one. While the legal status of women has improved no end since my yoof - women on here have been shocked to learn there were no maternity rights when my career started, for eg - the belief in gender differences seems to have multiplied exponentially.

Imagine for a second you're an alien and you land in the centre of Brent Cross Shopping Centre. You notice the appearances of the people around you. You determine there are two sexes. You notice that that it is possible to make certain general observations about the relative appearances of those two sexes...

Does no one honestly see where I'm going with this? I really don't see why it's necessary or relevant to go into the analysis socialised pressure of why those differences are there and the fairness of it NONE OF WHICH I'M CONTESTING!!!! This was an off-the-cuff question tbh.

If you really are determined to jump into orbit, perhaps buggering off is the right answer.

Damsili - I really don't think you're helping yourself here by suggesting other posters bugger off.

What???! Now you're being damn silly, damsilli.

If you can't see the point in discussing the relative merits of giving up gender, perhaps you shouldn't have started a therad about it

Garlic yes I agree with that. I found this picture of an American boy in the 1800s wearing a very "girly" pink dress.

Damsili can you determine differences in their brains while walking around Brent Cross?

Aww, Flora :)

I think it is incredible that you can make the assumption that an alien landing in Brent Cross would notice difference in sex before anything else.

I mean literally. Incredible. I find it hard to believe that someone would present that as a matter of unproblematic fact.

I think DS was suggesting that he/she buggered off.

DS, of course an alien would observe differences in how men and women presented themselves. Of course society sees certain attributes as more masculine/feminine than others.

I don't think anyone is disputing that but we are struggling to see how that implies any inherent gender differences.

True, Ros - different sizes, skin colours, hair colours, hair lengths might all be observed first.

I've never been to Brent cross. Do people walk round there naked???? Because that's actually THE ONLY WAY you'd be able to tell from observation that there were two sexes.

Perhaps the two sexes are actually ginger (me) and not. Or curly (me again) and not. Or bearded and not. Or bald and not. Or glasses and not.

I asked a question about current clothes and make-up fashion now. It had nothing to do with brain and gender development - although, it was related to how people identify with a gender. I totally acknowledge that gender can be a fashion and I totally acknowledge that there are serious oppressive factors at force.

I've said this several times now. None of this suggests I can't see merits in the pov put across by bella that relates to the thread's initial objective!! Again, I've not said anything to suggest otherwise.

Seriously, what's with this determination to crucify people for things they haven't said?

Or small and not (children are one sex, those over 5 foot another)
Or maybe it's all about how you smell, to this alien. Maybe the difference is the perfumed and the unperfumed. or those who eat garlic, and those who don't