Why dress like this?

[Spidergirl8]

I feel very depressed that more and more female celebrities decide to dress like this. These celebrities, like it or not, are role models for many girls and I feel it sets a very scary tone for what young girls may aspire too.

I do believe everyone has freedom of choice and can wear what they want, but I think that more often than not, this type of outfit is done as a publicity stunt.

Am I being too harsh, or does anyone agree?

But, for all the "mainstream" images I see, I also look at the images that I personally find attractive - and loads of those are, for want of a better phrase, redressing the balance and are CFNM. So, perhaps, my experience, my life, doesn't make it as big an issue as it is for those who aren't looking at the sorts of images I do?

Also, the Wikipedia on CFNM mentions that women are doing a disservice by objectifying men through CFNM, which has definitely given me pause for thought. Although, I tend towards "what's sauce for the goose"

I just can't imagine defining everything I do by my sexual proclivities.

I don't Hak, but in terms of the images I choose to look at and pay attention to, I do tend towards those that are attractive to me.

Mainstream images affect people. It’s what most of us see. I make an effort to seek out alternative media - but I don’t think the problem has gone away just because I’m not currently looking at it.

Perhaps you are right Briar and I am narrowminded. Not a thought I'd considered, but I will give it some thought.

"don't you think the choice is shaped by expectations? I think very few of our choices are the product only of our free will."

well yes, that's why we wear clothes at all.

"Women in the music industry in particular are required to please the male gaze in the way they dress, dance etc. Of course they were not forced to wear these dresses but their choices are not unconstrained. There's a difference between saying that choices are constrained and that women are unable to make their own decisions."

I think for every example of Miley Cyrus and Rihanna there are examples of singers who are not required to please the male gaze. They might be attractive, but should they need to make themselves less so to please the feminists? Taylor Swift was my example above. Katy B (who inspired my username, I was listening to her at the time of thinking of one) doesn't dress anything like Rihanna, she is frequently found on stage in a jumper and jeans. She just finished a tour with a good few sell out dates, and her album has done very well this year. Little Mix, who are barely out of their teens, dress in a very age appropriate way that is in keeping with their target fan base of young girls - they can still appeal to adults without taking their clothes off. They have also done very well for a girlband with their last album, and also completed a very successful tour this year.

The biggest selling album of 2011 was by Adele, the biggest selling album of 2012 was by Emeli Sande, neither of them have been required to please the male gaze in order to be successful.

Maybe, because everyone seeks out those who are similar to themselves, maybe because I socialise and live a large part of my life in a group of people who are inclusive and where those sort of images would apply equally to men and women and where neither would be viewed as problematic in any way, maybe by being like that I have been narrowminded instead of inclusive and accepting of difference as I have thought?

I don't know. I shall certainly give it some thought.

Quite often I look at images that I don't find "attractive". In fact quite a lot of art doesn't arouse me sexually at all.

I don't mean attractive in the sense of sexually attractive not ALL the time

I think for every example of Miley Cyrus and Rihanna there are examples of singers who are not required to please the male gaze.

I do think they're required to do it. Imagine the reactions if they suddenly started to appear, perform and make music videos in a radically different way. Looking like their casual selves - white tee, jeans, no make-up, no particularly sexy dancing, armpit hair etc. (Like many male artists)
Not saying that they should. But there is defintely a specific look and rules for female artists to follow if they want to be at the top of the pops.

Hi Briar,

But like I just said, Adele and Emeli Sande managed to be top of the pops without doing it, so it is not a requirement to be accepted and successful in the music industry.

If Rihanna started dressing in polo necks and bootleg jeans and never wore any revealing clothing ever again, it might attract comment, just the same as people I know would talk about me if I started to dress like Rihanna.

Oh or did you mean imagine if Adele or Emeli Sande started to dress in jeans and tshirts and show hairy armpits? Well why should they? The vast majority of times I have seen Adele on stage she is wearing nothing more extravagant than a black dress. If it's at some sort of awards ceremony or something, it might have a bit of sparkle on it but do we have to lament how she is capitulating to pleasing the male gaze because of that? Her clothes are a bit smarter than when she first appeared on the scene but I would expect that is more to do with having money. I dress a bit smarter now than when I was a penniless student.

I agree Briar. Adele is an exception but that does not change the fact that women in the music industry are under pressure to lose weight (like one of Little Mix) or maintain a slim figure. Some women singers resist the pressure but that doesn't mean that the pressure isn't there.

Who are the male equivalents to Rhianna and Miley?

Hmm, Karl Lagerfeld was reported as stating the Adele was 'too fat'. To say that women who choose to dress in a more modest way are not victim to comment and it has no negative affect on their career is not something I agree with. It shouldn't be this way, but certainly in the pop industry it is a requirement.

Jesy from Little Mix was not put under pressure to lose weight by the industry, the pressure came from the public. It first came up when they were on X Factor and she was crying because of negative comments from bitchy internet trolls. X Factor tackled this head on and discussed it, which I think is important - it wasn't brushing the image thing under the carpet. And she is not at all skinny now - she is a bit fitter than she was back when they started but that probably has a lot to do with being on tour, and yes they probably have a trainer but that is because they need to be fit and have stamina to be able to perform in the energetic way that they do. A slightly slimmer body is a by-product of that. But she is still not very thin (she wasn't even that big to begin with) - she looks fit and healthy and strong, as do all the other members of the group, so I think they are actually good role models. To say she has done a regrettable thing for losing weight is no better than judging her for being slightly bigger than your average popstrel.

As for male equivalents - Trey Songz, Jason Derulo, even the dreaded Bieber are frequently frolicking around topless. There is a slight issue in that even a topless man is somehow not as shocking as a woman showing a lot of cleavage, buttock, whatever. For an image of a man to be as shocking, he would either have to have his bum out (which would only really happen in something like Attitude magazine), or be showing his penis, which just wouldn't happen. I agree that there is more of a market for a woman in risque clothes than men

Karl Largerfield is a well known knobhead...

That is actuallly a point there, Spidergirl, but I do not think it is exclusive to the music industry. I think the film industry is worse, but admittedly I know much less about it.

As we all know full well, a woman is subjected to judgement for being too fat, too thin, dressed too slutty, dressed to drab, being too sexual, being not sexual enough... this happens in all walks of life, not just pop music. I said on another thread, I think shaking our heads about the clothes that a person in the public eye chooses to wear is focussing on a red herring and missing out on the bigger picture. Saying "why dress like this?" is judging the person for dressing that way, not judging why we care that they are dressed that way. Them dressing differently will not solve the issue.

I agree. Miley is often ridiculed for her lack of clothes though. The whole of pop culture is riddled with this objectification of women. I hate it. My 13 year old saw a TOTP2 on TV recently from the 1990s. The members of the female band, Eternal, were wearing trouser suits and he said "why are they dressed like that?." I replied "Because pop stars wore clothes in those days. Women didn't need to take their clothes off to sell records."

Ah Eternal, one of my favourites the 90s were the pinnacle of culture, as far as I am concerned.

My point still stands, women still do not need to take their clothes off to sell records. Girl bands aren't hugely fashionable at the moment so there are not many examples, but Little Mix are the equivalent to Eternal these days - they are a bit younger and have a bit less of a "soul" image so their image is slightly different, but it's no less modest.

If Miley is ridiculed for the way she dresses, surely the people in the wrong are those doing the riduculing, not her for dressing that way? I have wrestled with this in my head , especially after reading a thread in another section. I do not feel like a woman's choice of clothes should be restricted by how people will judge her as a result; I am not denying that people will judge but the problem is with the judges - it's their attitudes that need to change, not the clothes. I feel that it's only right that I apply that logic to people in the public eye, otherwise I feel it's all illogical and I can't work out where I stand. Some people will say "yes in an ideal world we should be able to wear what we like but we don't live in an ideal world". I don't think those who do not cover up, for whatever reason, should have to tone themselves down.

"Karl Largerfield is a well known knobhead..."

Amen to that.

Does Trey Songz turn up to awards ceremonies dressed in revealing outfits while all the women around him are fully clothed? (I have no idea).

If we are looking for a male equivalent, it would be one who dresses the way he does in his videos in public when he is not performing.

Because when you don't have talent to put on display you have to put out something else instead. That photo is pretty tame considering what those two have done previously. You're not being harsh at all.

It's nothing new - sex sells but it needs to be pretty obvious these days with the constant need to outdo the last outrageous act , you can't elude to it but you need to have a full porno type promo anything less and you're no longer 'a strong independent woman taking charge of her sexuality' or whatever the bullshit message/spam of the week is.

Hi Noble,

Yes, that's what I meant by you'd never get a man showing his arse or penis at this kind of event, which is the only way that it could be as explicit. So I do completely agree that there is a difference. I totally see that.

If Jason Derulo was at a fashion gala event topless he would not be serving much of a purpose, as a naked torso would not be showing off much of the designer's work. I guess there is not much you can do with a man's clothing without making it look outlandish or extremely camp or fetish-y.

I suppose the question we are asking is why is it outlandish for a man to be dressed like that but for a woman it is not as shocking? My thoughts are well does that really matter, as long as the woman is not forced? If she enjoys dressing up is it a problem? I would not think anything of seeing a woman at, say, a posh work party, dressed in what Rihanna is wearing in the first post. I might think it's revealing, but I would not start questioning it from a feminist viewpoint.

I have often discussed this with male friends - men kind of have a uniform whereas women's clothes are more for decoration and fashions change a lot. If I went out tonight with friends that I have known for a decade, I'd be dress in something completely different from what I would have worn ten years ago, but the men could be wearing exactly the same clothes as then and no one would notice. I suppose women's clothing is more fluid than men's, you can do a lot more with a dress than you can a tuxedo.