Why a lot of women don't come on the feminism threads...

[Scarletohello]

So I posted this question earlier, why don't more women come on these threads ( considering how many women are on MN)

The replies saddened me. Are we doing something wrong? I remember a thread some time ago asking how many women lurk on the feminism threads but never post. I was shocked by how many women read these threads but didn't feel able to join in. I don't think feminism has to be particularly intellectual and I would like to be able to educate more women about feminism, how it affects women in many different areas of their lives, offer support and talk about what we as women can do about it.

Please have a read of this thread and tell me what your thoughts are. I want us to be as inclusive as possible as it affects us all...

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/am_i_being_unreasonable/2222959-To-be-a-bit-dismayed-if-4-million-women-visit-this-site-why-are-there-so-few-posts-on-the-feminism-threads

Blistory I posted on several of the trans threads under a different name(s) but I did stop after a while as the arguments people were making were clear and I didn't agree with them and that was fine.

It did feel like I was a lone voice on the thread against a bit of a consensus and I did get supportive pms from other feminists saying that they agreed but didn't want to post because they found the threads upsetting and transphobic.

So whilst I was fine and felt like I was having an interesting conversation (albeit one where I was in opposition to all other posters) other people clearly feel like the trans stuff is a problem and a barrier to getting on with the board.

Sorry, Outs, to talk about you as if you weren't here. (esp. now you are)

Ha, no problem with anyone discussing my posts whether I'm here or not Ros

Down, don't you think those who were sending PMs would have been more supportive by coming on the thread as well as sending private messages ?

My issue is not that people didn't post but that they're complaining now that the threads went in one direction only. And using it as a reason to condemn the FWR boards.

Trans stuff is massively difficult, so is the abortion to term concept but that doesn't mean they shouldn't be discussed. The subject matter might be difficult but that doesn't mean that views can't be expressed respectfully and with tolerance. My perception was that they were but then again, there were few opposing voices to tell me otherwise.

I don't know, I think people are being slightly disingenuous about 'not a feminist choice'

At the simplest level: FWR thinks feminism is good, right? And Not-Feminism is undesirable, is the other side of things. There is a basic value system built into this section.

So telling someone they've done something that is 'not a feminist choice' is inherently a critique. Even if you are not saying they are a bad feminist or a bad person, you are still saying they have done something that is not aligned with the movement this section supports. So you can't really be surprised if people don't appreciate being told this.

I think that's why I also prefer 'that [act] is not compatible with feminism'. Then it is not about the individual's decision, it locates the 'badness' within that act or practice. So it is less about judging (because it is judging) a person's decision and keeping the focus on the act.

I'm not saying we should agree with all choices or that we should stifle debate by not critiquing choices. But I think, as in any time you discuss a person's choice, it should be done with the utmost tact, and even then you should not be surprised if they don't appreciate it.

Blistory -- I did post on some of those trans threads. These threads were more than 500 posts, lots of posters, and I was literally one of maybe three people arguing the 'other' side. A lot of the posts were upsetting. Much of the discussion was theoretical. I'm not surprised there were a lot of people who wanted to post but were intimidated. And tbh, I don't go on the trans threads anymore because even after all my arguing, I don't seem to have convinced a single person of anything. So what's the point?

I am actually glad to see a number of people here saying that those threads were disturbing, even if they didn't post on them, because it reassures me that I'm not crazy to have found them disturbing myself.

Blistory the impression i got was that people were put off coming onto the threads because they had done before and felt that it had become aggressive to the point where it felt transphobic and that they did not want to be associated with that.

and actually, one of the threads that I was on felt like that. It was only one poster but it did make me back off the board because it just felt a bit much. They posted a pic of a transwoman with a baseball bat saying kill cis scum on it or something. It just felt like propoganda or to use your other example like someone had posted a picture of a full term aborted foetus onto the thread. It was just too much.

I understand why that would put people off. It felt ranty and unpleasant. It was only one poster but things like that are pretty memorable and can really make you think twice about getting involved.

That said, I just avoid trans threads and read the rest so it doesn't put me off FWR its just made me wary of going near those conversations and clearly other posters feel the same way.

cross post with dreaming bohemian

But the reason the discussion arises is that someone comes on and basically says "isn't feminism about choice?" It often arises around issues of women changing their names or wanting to be called Mrs and not Ms. The discussion is about whether feminism is about choice; it is a core issue that goes to the heart of feminism. It is hard to have that discussion without talking about the nature of individual choices, and frankly, some posters are so enamored of the "everything a woman does empowers all women" school of thought that no matter how you phrase it, they will be offended.

So telling someone they've done something that is 'not a feminist choice' is inherently a critique. Even if you are not saying they are a bad feminist or a bad person, you are still saying they have done something that is not aligned with the movement this section supports.

I really don't see it like that, to me "not a feminist choice" is that something is a choice independant of feminism. So something not done with the motivation of furthering feminism, which isn't a bad thing. Doing something with the motivation of undoing feminism, so calling something "unfeminist" I'd say would be a value judgement.

I cant speak for anyone else Buffy but personally i like the theory stuff, including the trans theory stuff. i found the threads uncomfortable but they made me think about things like lived experience and so on- which I haven't before so I appreciated that.

But honestly, not all of it was about theory, not all of it was respectful and some of it was pretty unpleasant (see my comments above) and that's what put me off.

Every FWR regular makes choices that they know don't advance the cause of feminism - maybe that's too unstated?

Buffy, my personal view is that this ability to separate theory from the critique of individuals may come naturally to academics and especially to social scientists but it is not necessarily how most people react to it. I fully believe you don't intend to critique people, but most people don't spend their days immersed in theory and making these distinctions, and I'm not sure it's reasonable to expect them to do so just because your intentions are good.

I think you should say whatever you want to say, but I do really understand when people see theoretical discussion as critique. There isn't really any way around it, but I think the more tactful and careful with our language, the better.

frankly, some posters are so enamored of the "everything a woman does empowers all women" school of thought that no matter how you phrase it, they will be offended.

This is true! And what Buffy said. It's also true that people take their personal choices ... personally, so it's natural if they're offended when informed that their choice is incompatible with their core values. I mean, that's a pretty massive thing to tell someone.

I completely fail to see what's difficult about answering "I shave my pubes because it makes me feel better, it's not to please a man!" with an acknowledgement that the poster's free to coif her muff as she likes, and to feel clean as she chooses, but the whole shaving thing actually arose from porn & cameras, and now some young men don't even know women's vulvas are naturally hairy, etc.

I chose this example because it IS usually explained on here :) I don't think there's much excuse for not doing so with any "... but, but!" feminist's choice, really.

The best excuse would be that FWR prefers to discuss feminism mainly in the abstract, to further feminist theory without the hindrance of explanations for the less-academic despite the tumbleweed blowing through www.mumsnet.com/Talk/feminist_theory, and doesn't want to be bothered by numpties or newbies.

Should that not be the case, then we should take more care of posters' feelings.

buffy not at all, I think you are great-just trying to say I like the theory stuff too.

I really don't see it like that, to me "not a feminist choice" is that something is a choice independant of feminism. So something not done with the motivation of furthering feminism, which isn't a bad thing.

But how can a choice about a feminist issue and taking a partner's name is a widely acknowledged feminist issue be independent of feminism?

In any feminist issue, there will be choices that are good for feminism and choices that are bad for feminism. So telling someone their choice was 'not feminist' is saying they were on the wrong side of feminism on this issue. People will naturally take that as a critique, in the context of a section that thinks feminism is a Good Thing.

Oh, xposted, dreaming :)

I understand that people feel very offended by the statement "that was not a feminist choice". But I feel it's important to be able to object when people claim choices as feminist which I think harm women as a class.

" not compatible with feminism" sounds way more totalising to me; as if the whole of feminism is unavailable to someone because they made a single choice.

Just quickly, on the subject of different types of feminism - there are indeed 2 posters that I can think of along the lines of what Blistory says at 18:07:

One, definitely a marxist feminist (I'm not going to name her) her posts were very very eloquent, and informative, and I liked to read them. I haven't seen her so prolific on the boards in the last year or so, and that's a shame.

Another, v famous in mumsnet terms - v career driven, owns an island etc, we all know who I'm talking about here. I like her - she's really quite disrespectful of sahms though. But, she says some great stuff - her stats on the men earning/owning 90% if the world's wealth/income - is really powerful stuff. She's a capitalist feminist (self professed) and I don't see myself as capitalism-centric - so there's lots I disagree with her about - but I had always seen her contributions as valuable to this board even though she has been pretty insulting to sahms, which I am! It's fine - I don't share her ideals - not everyone shares mine. It's life.

I'm really finding the fwr bashing quite difficult to take - we're individuals posting on a board.