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Original poster

Why a lot of women don't come on the feminism threads...

999 replies

Scarletohello · 30/10/2014 22:38

So I posted this question earlier, why don't more women come on these threads ( considering how many women are on MN)

The replies saddened me. Are we doing something wrong? I remember a thread some time ago asking how many women lurk on the feminism threads but never post. I was shocked by how many women read these threads but didn't feel able to join in. I don't think feminism has to be particularly intellectual and I would like to be able to educate more women about feminism, how it affects women in many different areas of their lives, offer support and talk about what we as women can do about it.

Please have a read of this thread and tell me what your thoughts are. I want us to be as inclusive as possible as it affects us all...

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/am_i_being_unreasonable/2222959-To-be-a-bit-dismayed-if-4-million-women-visit-this-site-why-are-there-so-few-posts-on-the-feminism-threads

OP posts:
FrauHelga · 03/11/2014 18:11

So should I or shouldn't I post "I don't understand" on the threads?

My head is exploding with the amount of mental gymnastics that will be necessary to post in here and tbh I'm not sure I can really be arsed with that.

Blistory · 03/11/2014 18:12

I'm not disagreeing with you or refusing to accept your point. Or at least I don't think I am ?

PetulaGordino · 03/11/2014 18:13

frau what do you think could be done to reassure you that you don't need to know all the language beforehand? i don't expect you to have all the answers here obviously, it's just that it's not something i saw when i first started posting here so my experience is clearly different from yours

FrauHelga · 03/11/2014 18:13

No but what you are saying is there's a lot of undercurrents and I read it like you're implying that it's only when there's a degree of familiarity that it would be acceptable to say "slow down" or "I don't understand".

And if you aren't familiar then you're going to get treated in a different way.

ArsenicSoup · 03/11/2014 18:15

I can't think who the poster is but there is someone whose view of feminism is very much shaped by Marxist theory and believes that the root of oppression stems from capitalism ( obviously this is my interpretation of what I think was said ), there are others who subscribe to a more radical feminism, some who insist the only correct approach is to consider intersectional feminism, other who ascribe to x wave of feminism as being the purest form and so it goes on and on.

Precisely it Blis - a lot of names and undercurrents and back-ideologies to learn before the whole makes sense. A lot of allusion and shorthand. To those who never learnt or have forgotten sociologese, it is another layer to decode.

Newcomers don't know what they don't know.

And if i'm sounding like Rumsfeld, that's definitely enough for one day Smile

PetulaGordino · 03/11/2014 18:17

frauhelga we had a really interesting discussion about consent and different communities the other day. it was certainly enlightening to me, i don't know about you. did you have to use a lot of mental gymnastics in that discussion? there's no reason why you should feel obliged to stick around here if you feel there are better conversations to be had elsewhere - it's not compulsory Grin. but i found your contributions very interesting and would hate to think you couldn't pop back here if something piqued your interest

Blistory · 03/11/2014 18:18

No, sorry, I was answering re the bit where you said it made you feel thick.

I do think it's easier for me to say - hang on, please explain - because I've posted on there for a while. I'm not saying that you shouldn't also do that but just that I understand I don't have the same issues about posters judging me or dismissing me.

Anyone who disregards someone asking a genuine question is a dick. But if a thread is busy, it takes time to circle back to the person who asked the question.

rosdearg · 03/11/2014 18:18

"For me, it is but a short step from 'that is not a feminist choice' to 'you are an awful person who supports rape and human trafficking'. "

gosh, really?

really?

I have to admit that I do see the difference between how people talk on here, and how people talk to people irl. And I prefer it here!

for me "that is not a feminist choice" and anything involving "you are an awful person" are absolutely worlds apart. Having said that, I wouldn't talk to people in real life at all about their choices, because I know full well it would go wrong.

Things I would never say to anyone in real life include:

I thought you said you were low-carbing? That is not a low-carb choice. (even if I thought they might know and it would be helpful! It would DEFINITELY go wrong if I were to say that. And I would hate anyone to say it to me, obv)

That colour isn't a great choice for you (as opposed to another colour which might look fantastic - only my opinion of course and no actual criticism of someone's looks - still I would never, ever say it)

If you want your boss to treat you differently, I think you could make different choices about how your attitude to her. (I have thought this often but would never, ever say it)

IF you are so tired all the time, why do you keep choosing to stay up watching crap TV?

and so on, and so on. Of course, there is nothing wrong with liking a colour that some people would think doesn't suit you, or watching TV you find enjoyable instead of going to bed - but people do things like this all the time that are at odds with what they say they want to achieve. and it is very rude to point it out.

On here (that is, on mn in general), we do talk much more directly than we do to people we know similarly slightly. And I love it! Because I learn a lot; I examine my beliefs and my actions; I don't have to actually face anyone in the moment doing this, which makes me not defensive; I can absorb (implicit) critcism in my own time; and of course ignore it, when it is not relevant or I just can't face it.

However, having said all that. I still think

"that is not a feminist choice" is a million miles from "you are an awful person"

YonicScrewdriver · 03/11/2014 18:21

I agree, Ros. I don't see the short step or even the big step "that is not a feminist choice' to 'you are an awful person who supports rape and human trafficking"

I'm really sorry you do, Spero.

PetulaGordino · 03/11/2014 18:21

those things are true of all boards that have people who regularly post on them, though. i'm not sure how you could get around that without regular people namechanging constantly (which actually does happen - there are posters who i'm not sure who they are but they are clearly familiar with posting here and they namechange every couple of weeks), or with people pretending we are all strangers. i recognise people from other areas of MN too if they pop up here as a one-off. feminism is perhaps different because it views itself as relevant to all women (badly phrased but you know what i mean). but i'm not sure how you could stop people recognising each other and remembering things about them if that is something that makes newcomers feel excluded

Blistory · 03/11/2014 18:22

Ros, to be fair, back in the day, for some people there wasn't a million miles between those two positions. I think when you were on the receiving end, as many of us were, it was distinctly unpleasant.

FrauHelga · 03/11/2014 18:23

Petula - I'm not going to rehash that thread, but you know that there was something said on it that I personally found offensive, and I got a pretty hard time over it.

rosdearg · 03/11/2014 18:26

I am going to storm the Style and Beauty boards and start a riot because I LIKE wearing leggings as trousers* and I am feeling oppressed and intimidated by the fact that they keep going on on and on about how it is not acceptable

*not really. you can see my arse from space

FrauHelga · 03/11/2014 18:27

But you know what. This thread is an emotional energy suck and the Op isn't even here to reply.

It smacks of AIBU ... yes you are... no I'm not ... yes you are ... no I'm not.

The OP asked the question. Me, and others, have explained why we don't (didn't? maybe I dunno) post. And those reasons have been hashed at and picked apart.

PetulaGordino · 03/11/2014 18:30

ok sorry, i was talking about the mothers and sons thread which i have only just realised was in AIBU not FWR, and clearly i've got this very wrong. i thought that ended up with some interesting discussion, but clearly i'm not seeing this as you do.

YonicScrewdriver · 03/11/2014 18:31

I see myself as having responded to them because I think it would be rude not to, I didn't mean to pick them apart.

BuffytheReasonableFeminist · 03/11/2014 18:32

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

rosdearg · 03/11/2014 18:32

"for some people there wasn't a million miles between those two positions"

well if that was the case, presumably they said so, and that was what was found so difficult? What people are / were objecting to, is some posters saying [what amounted to] "you are an awful person who supports human trafficking" not "that is not a feminist choice"?

Right?

or "that is not a feminist choice" ... which was assumed to amount to something that nearly amounted to "you are an awful person"? because some people sometimes used them in the same paragraph about the same things?

So ... where does that leave people - anyone - who just want to say "that is not a feminist choice"?

Honestly, I think there is still a need for consciousness raising. I think there needs to be a way to say - kindly, without saying "you are an awful person" that "that is not a feminist choice". I really do. I don't know if that makes me an awful person or patronising or something. but I am not an academic, I do not have jargon, but I have spent a lot of time thinking about this, and managing young women who have not, and I have stuff to share. I really do. In the way that I love to learn from all you lot (waves arms generally, expansively, at the women of mn) I think I have stuff to contribute, stuff to share. Should I not? Should I not think I do? If it is sort of ok, in principle, how can it be done?

Blistory · 03/11/2014 18:33

This is going round in circles at times.

The FWR boards had a melt down about 2 years ago. It wasn't pleasant but it brought to light that many posters on there had been treated appalling for some time. I am genuinely sorry for anyone who suffered through that and was bullied.

But things have moved on and there is a tendency for posters on MN to refer to those days as if it is the present which is influencing those who wish to post on the boards.

For those who continue to describe the trans threads as appalling - if you wanted a voice other than the "party voice" to be heard - look to yourselves as to why no other voices were heard. If so many of you exist but don't have the courage of your convictions to post, that's not the fault of existing or previous posters on FWR. FWR is what posters make it. Not what the regulars make it, but what all posters make it.

BuffytheReasonableFeminist · 03/11/2014 18:38

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

ArsenicSoup · 03/11/2014 18:39

but i'm not sure how you could stop people recognising each other and remembering things about them if that is something that makes newcomers feel excluded

Sorry, i'm tired and not explaining well. It is just a challenge to work your way into. I'm not suggesting everyone should pretend not to know each other. Maybe just be more patient with people blundering in asking silly questions?

Personally, I find the language the least intimidating aspect, but a lot of people are citing it, so it is an issue. I have dropped this stuff into pub conversations myself in years past and drawn blank looks, I know how it becomes the vocab of thought when you are immersed. And isn't when you're not.

I was just ruminating on the different barriers.

yackity · 03/11/2014 18:39

Ok, as a newby here, I don't agree that 'this is not a feminist choice' is a short step from 'you are an awful person' at all.

I changed my surname when I married. It wasn't a feminist choice, but it doesn't make me an awful person!

There are lots of choices that I make that are the same. I make them for my own reasons, not at all related to being a feminist.

PetulaGordino · 03/11/2014 18:41

yes i've always thought that was a good idea, provided new posters don't feel dismissed if they ask a question and are told "go and look at the welcome mat" iyswim

OutsSelf · 03/11/2014 18:43

Can I just say, again, that I did not ride onto the board and decree what feminism is. I gave a series of posts outlining a criteria for a feminist choice, assess a specific choice in that context, and invited a discussion of that criteria. Plenty of room for nuance, debate, critique and revision. No claim on my part that I knew better than ever one. So you characterisation of that statement is based, Spero, on the fact you didn't read the whole of what I posted. I'd appreciate if you would acknowledge that it read that way to you because you did not read the rest of what I posted. I'd also appreciate if you'd stop characterising it as dogmatic and inflexible, because in the context it was given it was neither of those things

GarlicNovember · 03/11/2014 18:46

Vesuvia - Replying to you before catching up, so apologies if you've already been answered.

I used layperson because it was in the quote I found offensive. You also find it offensive; I agree with you.

I had understood 'not our job' as 'not our responsibility'. That's why I answered "It's my job!" I'm not employed. I meant I willingly take on the mantle of explainer (sometimes) so it's incorrect to say "It's not FWR's job" because I'm in FWR and do consider it my responsibility (sometimes.)

I thought we'd already done that. Apologies that I can't have been clear enough.