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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Discussion with female friend re Ched

187 replies

HenriettaTurkey · 26/10/2014 10:53

So I posted an article on fb, with a link to an article on Ched Evans and the myth of male sexuality.

With it I wrote 'it's very simple. If she's drunk and you have sex with her, it's rape. That's the law'.

Several friends responded positively, saying such things as 'if in doubt assume the answer's no', 'it would be easier to move on if he at least acknowledged his act' etc

Then a female friend came on and, through various posts said I was being ridiculous as this meant that no-one could ever have a drink and have sex again.

After banging my head against the wall I realised you lovely folk would be able to help me construct a coherent response that doesn't rely on my usual, possibly unhelpful, sarcasm.

Help!

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smashboxmashbox · 26/10/2014 13:50

Because legally there is a difference between being drunk and losing your inhibitions and being drunk and not having capacity to consent.

www.criminallawandjustice.co.uk/comment/Voluntary-Intoxication-and-Consent-Cases-Rape

BuffytheReasonableFeminist · 26/10/2014 13:50

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

HenriettaTurkey · 26/10/2014 13:54

Smash "I am obviously putting my point across in a way that's not clear".

It's frustrating, isn't it!

My reasons for posting were part of an attempt to redress the imbalance that exists in society, whereby when someone is raped they often end up feeling as though they are on trial; not the alleged rapist.

Clearly I've failed spectacularly. I do appear to have started a debate on fb as a result of the comment, where others are putting the point across that I failed to make. Luckily they understood what I was trying to say!

So if it makes others go away and do their own research and question their own stance on rape, and the responsibilities of both parties, that is some consolation.

As a mum of a little boy, with a second little boy on the way, lately my mind has been focused on the messages I want them to take with them in life, regarding how they treat women. Well, treat everyone really. I am feeling my way and make mistakes - and I'm sure this won't be my last. Apologies for that.

One of my favourite songs is Nina Simone, 'I'm just a soul whose intentions are good. Oh lord, please don't let me be misunderstood'. It seems quite relevant today.

OP posts:
Nojacketrequired · 26/10/2014 13:55

Could I admit my own denseness, and ask what the 'myth of male sexuality' is, as referred to in the OP?

smashboxmashbox · 26/10/2014 13:57

Henrietta - you teach your sons to treat women as equals and not to stick their dick where it's not welcome.

It's not difficult.

HenriettaTurkey · 26/10/2014 13:59

NDT - that definition of drunk is fantastically helpful.

I'm known as a wine lover, so definitely know that having a drink isn't the same. And made that point on FB. But it didn't appear to be acknowledged in her response.

As to the character of my friend? She does like a debate, and I don't always agree. Eg we have very different opinions on Israel/gaza but she has personal reasons for feeling that way. I just watch the news.

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BuffytheReasonableFeminist · 26/10/2014 14:03

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

smashboxmashbox · 26/10/2014 14:08

I don't drink. Ever. So I really can't comment on drunk sex.

YonicScrewdriver · 26/10/2014 14:14

" Do you think anyone on your friends list is a potential rapist? "

There's a fairly high chance there's someone on her list who thinks Ched isn't.

NotDavidTennant · 26/10/2014 14:16

smashboxmashbox - You need to be a subscriber to read that link.

Anyway, it's a bit unfair to expect the OP to have to use the precise legal meanings of terms in her FB statuses.

smashboxmashbox · 26/10/2014 14:18

NDT - I just googled it :S so I dunno about having to be a subscriber.

And given that the OP was pontificating about what the law was, I really don't think it's unreasonable to expect her to know what the actual law is.

Missunreasonable · 26/10/2014 14:22

NDT : I understand the dictionary definition of drunk but I'm not sure that everybody fits the dictionary criteria. I'm thinking about myself when I have been drunk: I can be quite coherent, find my way home without any problems, appear quite normal and can consent to sex, however, the next day I know I must have been very drunk because my memories are sketchy and over the course of the day many embarrassing memories come back to haunt me.
Thankfully I don't get drunk very often and not at all within the last couple of years.
I know that there have been times where I have woken up and have the obvious physical signs that sexual intercourse has taken place but I have to try really hard to remember the details. Usually at some point in the afternoon I remember what happened and it usually involved dragging my husband to bed and being rather demanding. There is no doubt that I have fully consented and no doubt that I was drunk, but I still didn't fit the dictionary definition of drunk.

smashboxmashbox · 26/10/2014 14:41

This is the text of what I get when I click the article :

Voluntary Intoxication and Consent in Cases of Rape

Date: 23rd February 2013
Tahir Khan QC offers some sobering thoughts

Two recent, well-publicized Crown Court trials have caused lawyers to grapple once again with the thorny issue of whether a woman rendered severely intoxicated by excessive drink can still give consent to sexual intercourse.

The following scenario is a familiar one to most criminal practitioners and has been taken from a trial at Bradford Crown Court.

A and B, two 14-year-old English girls with a history of familial turmoil and social services involvement, roam the streets late at night looking to be picked up by men in cars and for the promise of free booze and cannabis.

X and Y pull up in a fancy car and the girls jump in and are driven around. They are plied with vodka and cannabis, which they happily consume.

When asked if they want to go to a hotel, the girls agree. A is so drunk and high on cannabis that she has little or no recollection of what happens after she walks into a bedroom with X. The following morning, A realizes, as she is sobering up, that she and X have had sex.

The same thing happens on subsequent meetings with the same two men. Each time, A gets herself so intoxicated that she does not recollect the sex and, when giving evidence at X’s trial, insists she did not want to have sex but, due to her intoxication, was incapable of resisting X’s advances. She never says she was raped.

The Crown case rests on the assertion that A was demonstrably “out of it” with drink, in support of the argument that she was incapable of consenting to sex. Reliance is placed on s.74 of the Sexual Offences Act 2003, which provides: “A person consents if he agrees by choice, and has the freedom and capacity to make that choice.”

Although the Act was intended to produce statutory provisions relating to consent which would be clear and unambiguous, the Act is silent about the impact of excessive but voluntary alcohol consumption on the ability to give consent to intercourse, or indeed to consent generally.

It was only a matter of time before the Court of Appeal would be called upon to provide much-needed guidance as to the proper construction of s.74. R. v. Bree [2007]EWCA Crim 804 and subsequent cases have established these principles: if, through drink or for any other reason, A has temporarily lost her capacity to choose whether to have sex, she is not consenting. If, in that event, intercourse takes place, that would be rape. The mere fact that A had consumed excessive amounts of alcohol and cannabis does not of itself justify a finding of incapacity and, if she remains capable of choosing whether or not to have intercourse, and in drink agrees to do so, this would not be rape.

Capacity to consent should not be confused with questions such as whether the alcohol made A less inhibited than she would have been if sober, nor whether she might afterwards have regretted what had happened and indeed wished that it had not. If A consented, her consent cannot be revoked ex post facto if she realizes that it was all a big mistake.

As the question of capacity to consent is a matter for the jury’s determination, accused men in the position of X will almost always find themselves at the mercy of their peers if they have had sex with a complainant who was very drunk at the time.

In the real world, the niceties of legal principle often give way to which of the protagonists gains the jury’s favour – a sobering thought

Author details
Tahir Khan QC is a senior criminal practitioner and a leading member of the criminal law team at West Yorkshire-based Broadway House Chambers, which has offices in both Leeds and Bradford. For more information, please visit www.broadwayhouse.co.uk, call 01274 722560 or e-mail [email protected]

YonicScrewdriver · 26/10/2014 14:49

But in that instance you wouldn't consider it rape so you wouldn't report it and it wouldn't be investigated.

YonicScrewdriver · 26/10/2014 14:49

(That was to Miss)

YonicScrewdriver · 26/10/2014 14:52

"In the real world, the niceties of legal principle often give way to which of the protagonists gains the jury’s favour – a sobering thought"

Seems fair to me - that's the point of juries, and they can be guided by the judge.

I imagine, in the case cited, the fact that A was 14 came into it too...

smashboxmashbox · 26/10/2014 14:56

"Although the Act was intended to produce statutory provisions relating to consent which would be clear and unambiguous, the Act is silent about the impact of excessive but voluntary alcohol consumption on the ability to give consent to intercourse, or indeed to consent generally."

NotDavidTennant · 26/10/2014 14:58

This is partially a matter of semantics isn't it?

When you start to drink you gradually begin to lose your inhibitions. I would call this state 'tipsy'. Eventually if you keep drinking, you get to the state where not only are you disinhibited, but you no longer fully understand what's happening around you or the consequences of your own actions. I would call this state 'drunk'.

This separation into two states seems to agree with the thrust of the article, which is that disinhibition is not grounds for a rape to have occurred, but losing the capacity to consent is. If you're operating under the definition of 'drunk' that I'm using above then I would say that the OP's statements is factually correct.

However, I can see that some people seem to be using a definition of 'drunk' which includes what I would think of as just 'tipsy'. If that is your definition of 'drunk' then OP is incorrect and I can see why you'd object.

BeyondPreparedForHell · 26/10/2014 14:58

if it makes you feel any better hen, i have a friend on fb where (however eloquent i can be elsewhere), i just CANNOT get my point across to them :)

BeyondPreparedForHell · 26/10/2014 15:01

Yonic
" Do you think anyone on your friends list is a potential rapist? "

"There's a fairly high chance there's someone on her list who thinks Ched isn't."

Well, technically he isnt a potential rapist is he, he's a tried and convicted, actual, factual rapist. Chedwyn The Rapist.

BeyondPreparedForHell · 26/10/2014 15:02

Oh and big yy to david's tipsy/few drinks and drunk/paralytic definitions.

NotDavidTennant · 26/10/2014 15:11

I should add that the OP made her statement in the context of the Ched Evans case where the victim was literally falling down drunk. You'd have to be really looking for an argument to interpret the OP as saying, "If she's had one glass of wine and you have sex with her, it's rape."

BuffytheReasonableFeminist · 26/10/2014 15:16

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

YonicScrewdriver · 26/10/2014 15:21

Yy beyond, I was posting in a hurry, CE is a rapidly!

HenriettaTurkey · 26/10/2014 15:26

Thanks, Beyond. Grin

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