Discussion with female friend re Ched

[HenriettaTurkey]

So I posted an article on fb, with a link to an article on Ched Evans and the myth of male sexuality.

With it I wrote 'it's very simple. If she's drunk and you have sex with her, it's rape. That's the law'.

Several friends responded positively, saying such things as 'if in doubt assume the answer's no', 'it would be easier to move on if he at least acknowledged his act' etc

Then a female friend came on and, through various posts said I was being ridiculous as this meant that no-one could ever have a drink and have sex again.

After banging my head against the wall I realised you lovely folk would be able to help me construct a coherent response that doesn't rely on my usual, possibly unhelpful, sarcasm.

Help!

"Almost like it's somehow worse to make a mistake with words that implies men are in the wrong when it comes to sex when in fact they aren't than it is for men to have sex with a woman too drunk to consent."

Yup.

I do know it's you're btw - my phone has other ideas

I'm not sure its helpful to speculate over whether or not the statement was 'misunderstood', and in fact, I believe to do so in this case is to obfuscate somewhat.

To say "...If she's drunk and you have sex with her, it's rape. That's the law..." is simply incorrect, and to begin the statement with "...its very simple..." (when it was clearly incorrect) won't have helped. What use is it speculating about the motivation of the friend who responded negatively when we can see just how wrong the statement itself is?

Some of the friends read the statement, and seemed to think it was indeed a 'simple' and correct statement of the law, or that it was logical, when it was clearly neither.

I occasionally play for a men's pub football team, and we talked about Evans etc. There were guys who were convinced that it was indeed now rape to have sex with a 'drunk' woman. Misinformation is damaging and actually detracts from the issue of 'consent' that lies at the heart of the matter.

The op can extricate herself from her position (in a manner of speaking) by just admitting that her 'simple' statement was incorrect/misleading. In my experience, most people react well to someone putting their hands up and admitting to a mistake.

Buffy and Nojacket - I agree.

And I think the OPs type of "this is the law and it's rape if" really isn't helpful.

And if I saw it on FB I'd have to say something to her. Because it's wrong. And I don't think it's helpful to post shite that is incorrect on fb.

The issue is consent. Not alcohol. Alcohol may lead to a consent issue, but the issue is consent, always the consent.

Thanks for the responses again - as I said I'm not always the most eloquent, and my meaning can sometimes be lost and I have made that clear on fb. At least I have tried. I've probably phrased it badly though!

Other fb friends have since added far better comments under mine and they are still being rebutted by technical questions about capacity & the like. Which I do feel is a red herring. And confirms my feelings that she's deliberately sidetracking.

She also says she hasn't heard of Ched Evans.

It really does feel like she's victim blaming.

She hasn't heard of Ched Evans?

Capacity when it comes to rape is not a red herring.

However - there is no "technical" measure of capacity, no level of alcohol in the blood that's ok and one that's not, unlike drink driving. And that's because a lack of capacity may be caused by many things - drink, drugs, drowsiness, SEN etc

Also - OP knows her friend and we don't. How does her friend usually react to such things will be a factor.

Buffy, I wish you could write my fb posts for me. You're so much better at expressing what I feel than I am.

Buffy - because of a wee insignificant cornerstone of the justice system called innocent until proven guilty?

Smash box, have you read the We Believe You stuff?

Not suggesting that Buffy - sorry - just saying that's why it is how it is.

Yonic - yes I have

I am obviously putting my point across in a way which isn't clear.

Consent is key. Any penetrative sex without full and meaningful consent where both parties have legal capacity to consent is rape.

I would never ever mean to imply that it's not and if that's the impression I've given then I apologise.

But what the OP said was wrong. Factually incorrect. And not helpful.

www.collinsdictionary.com/dictionary/english/drunk

"drunk (dr??k Pronunciation for drunk )

Definitions
adjective

1. intoxicated with alcohol to the extent of losing control over normal physical and mental functions"

I'm not sure why people are talking about the word 'drunk' as if it means having had a single drink. If someone has drank enough alcohol that they no longer have control of their mental functions (as per the definition above) then I'm not sure in what sense it can be said that they still have the capacity to consent.