My relationship and feminism

[cailindana]

I recently posted here about issues DH and I were having.

The upshot is, I put my foot down and he's started engaging with feminism.

It's been a very strange process so far. He has been totally knocked over backwards by the whole thing and I am finding it very weird to see how much it has affected him.

I think it would help me to discuss what's going on with us, and how I am seeing and experiencing his navigation through this journey.

So far, he's read "Our Blood." At first he was quite analytical about the whole thing and my heart sank because I could see he was just taking it on as theory. That changed though, slowly, and he started to get it. The tough part for him is that the scales have fallen from his eyes and he's seeing it everywhere. Which, as we all know, is an essential part of the process.

I'm curious if anyone else has gone through something like this with a partner or a male friend?

I should add, to give background on where all this is coming from - I threatened to leave DH because I was sick of always coming second in our relationship. He could see I was serious and this was the kick up the bum he needed to change his attitude (not just his actions).

I admit I am still quite dubious about the whole thing and there is an element of distrust - if he can suddenly change in this way, seemingly so completely, why hasn't he done it in the past? He claims he wasn't ready in the past, but I still worry that it's a temporary thing and that once it gets too hard for him he'll just retreat back to his privileged position - why wouldn't he?

I've found ‘what has been seen, cannot be unseen' unless hes spectacularly good at self deception then hopefully the changes will be permanent.

For me it really was a case of ignorance of the whole Patriarchy, why question it when you rarely see a downside? Sometimes I do regret learning about Feminism, ignorance is bliss sometimes...

...yet the truth will set us free.

Sorry, that was a bit deep.

No keepit, I appreciate your input on this. He has said the same thing - he can't imagine ever going back to the way he was.

One issue that arose last night was that I was talking about giving birth to our kids and how little recognition I got, from him and the world in general, for doing what is pretty much the most amazing thing imaginable - bringing life into this world. I said there was some compensation for that, in that I get to be someone's mum, which I feel is a majorly important role in someone's life, one that is hard to compete with. He made a silly joke and I was furious.

This is one of the ways he has of pulling back the focus and belittling my thoughts and feelings - by joking and making me feel a bit of a twat. I always celebrate his achievements, I always cheer him on, and yet he cannot do the same for me - it's always a competition and I can't outdo him.

He admitted that he sees pregnancy and childbirth as something he can't possibly compete with and that his tendency to disregard and belittle them is a product of that.

We didn't end on very good terms, unfortunately. It was really late and I had to go to sleep.

It remains to be seen if this will be resolved.

Keepit - I would be really interested in any input you have in all this.

I've not been in your situation exactly Cailin. Dh has been taking on feminism in a more "natural" way. being force fed it as I learn it It's nice, he's changing gradually and I think it will stay. Your dh has had a 'holy crap what's wrong with the world month' so not sure how that works.

I disagree with KIH that what has been seen can't be unseen. I was a vegan for a number of years and an activist I never thought I would not be, but eventually over time i just got lazy. Instead of seeing the abuse of animals everywhere I just choose not to look. I swapped veganism for vegetarianism I know it makes me a hypocrite but I've just done it for an easier life somehow without really making a conscious effort. If you have daughters your dh might find it harder to go back though.

We have a DD AsAMan.

In what way is your DH changing?

I agree with you by the way AsA, that it is quite easy to slip back. I think the veganism analogy is a good one. I made the point to DH that I have no choice but to be affected by these things, but he does have a choice and there is a danger that if it all gets too hard he can reject it and go back to his cosy blanket of denial.

Fair enough AsAMan, I suspect you're right and as individuals we all disregard stuff that upsets us. I think as far as Feminism goes DD's presence will probably keep it in the forefront of my mind for a while yet.

Interestingly DW doesn't seem to share my views on Feminism so that's quite a bizarre dynamic in itself. I find myself questioning my own intepretation of what I've learnt here and other sources about the movement. That element of stopping and re-evaluating I find really useful.

Cailin - I understand completely his reaction to the power women hold when giving life. It isn;t something that can be compared to anything a man can do. So why try? The belittling thing could be a standard reaction to what he may see as boasting may be? I don't know, I'm just chucking ideas down as they occur so feel free to ignore.

Also re: pregnancy/birth etc... it's all pretty full on, and it's entirely focussed on the mother/mother to be as it should be. But this is at odds with how life normally is, i.e. male-centred so there's likely to be a knee jerk reaction against that too. It was something I was aware of and I'm not sure how successful I was at recognising it for what it was - male entitlement. These emotions can be pretty strong sometimes, despite being completely irrational and unfair on women.

DH really was rubbish around both my pregnancies and births - he was there in body but not in spirit, which in a way is harder as it took me a long time to recognise just how alone I really was. One of the main issues we discussed originally when all this came to a head was the problem of energy - the amount of energy, time and effort I have put into our relationship versus the total lack of energy he's given.

I get what you say about the boasting thing KIH - but he has no qualms about "boasting" to me, in fact he had only ten minutes previously been talking about his promotion application and how he'd been given new responsibilities at work. And my response to that is always "wow, well done." Yet I went through 18 months of hell (between the two pregnancies) plus a miscarriage, plus two excruciatingly painful labours, so he can have his children and I never even got a thank you. When I try to bring up my feelings on it, I get a stupid joke. He has to feel superior to me.

Dh always told me if he could have had the babies, he would've done. And he meant it, it's not just empty words.

My health has been impacted on an ongoing basis by pregnancy and birth. I know I am not alone in that.

Not to the extent of yours, Cailin, we were lucky to have two successful pregnancies

I often feel it's frowned on for women to complain about PG related stuff because, hey! You get a baby. But men get a baby without the PG stuff and aren't expected to be thankful for that!

Sorry, bit of a derail.

There are some similarities for me and DH, though it's more of a gradual process. We had a crisis point earlier in the year and I have tried to stand my ground more but also explain my viewpoint more since, and I've often been impressed by his insight since. There was an occasion I discussed on a being hassled whilst running thread on here a while ago, which was a watershed for him - he went into solution and protection mode. I was pretty sharp about my intention to continue to run where I wanted, but also told him clearly how depressingly day to day that sort of thing is for me. I genuinely don't think he appreciated the widespread nature of it before. He was also incensed at the start of the school year at the quality of shoes available for DD, the flimsiness and prioritisation of appearance over being able to run and keep her feet dry, and bought her boys shoes. These are little things but signs of a sea change. He was also pretty absent and useless when DCs were babies, I have had to decide not to dwell on that if I'm going to give us a go.

I actually think society's blase attitude to child bearing is a huge feminist issue. It's a fact that women rusk their health, their lives, their careers, their self image and their physical integrity to have children, not to mention the worry, discomfort, lack of freedom and general annoyance that come with being pregnant. And it's all dismissed as nothing. Whereas men are seen as heroes if they simply turn up at the birth and hold the woman's hand.

It is a huge responsibility to bare and should be treated as such. I guess its always going to be viewed as a risk/reward situation though.

I don't think it is possible for me to empathise with the whole lot that women who bare children do have to go through. Mind you I doubt I can with the reward element either. I don't think the latter is necessarily a gender issue though!

Thing is though KIH - men get the reward too- they get a child without any physical cost and often without actually having to put much work into caring for the child.

Hi, hope it's OK if I step in too! My DH has been learning as I do. He's now at the point where he'll complain if there's not enough women in a series we're watching, or if a great female character is killed off for no apparent reason. He didn't used to see a problem with the way women are treated (obviously!) until I asked him to consider if he'd be happy to see his daughters or myself treated that way. Since then he's really changed, even pulling people up at work over sexist attitudes. He doesn't pass off jokes any more, he'll challenge them now. He'll sometimes even see things before I do.

He's always been appreciative of what my body has gone through for our children though, and does his fair share around the house.

Sounds massively irritating, Callin. Joking is so clearly a strategy here, what does he think it would cost him, what would he have to concede, to treat the labour you have given to the family with seriousness? If you can get him to answer that question you might make some progress.

My DP came to the birth of our son and was utterly stunned, he kept saying, "nothing I can do will ever compare to that". He wasn't depressed or intimidated by that - but I can see how you might be. Is it possible your DH zoned out because he couldn't handle the enormity of it? And he's basically still not able to?

"Thing is though KIH - men get the reward too- they get a child without any physical cost "

Yy.

It is true that men do get the reward, maybe it's just my personal experience that suggests the pleasure gained by a mother seems greater than that by a father. Certainly DW derives greater pleasure from DC than I do. Could be a SAHP thing?

I'm not convinced this is a gender issue thoough, I know I have a lot of baggage I need to work through. Equally I suppose I'm not convinced it isn't a gender issue either.

Any ideas/comments/criticisms welcomed. I'm willing (and hoping) to be persuaded on this one.

Sorry Cailin this has derailed a bit. Feel free to tell me to start another thread (though why I'm offering to give you permission to do that is anyone's guess)

Sorry KIH, I lost you. You're not convinced what is a gender issue?

"my personal experience that suggests the pleasure gained by a mother seems greater than that by a father"

I think this is case by case! I don't think it's true in our house, but then neither of us is a SAHP.

If either of a couple is a SAHP by choice then hopefully it's the parent who would get more pleasure from the choice who is doing it. If one must be through no choice (childcare too expensive or whatever) then hopefully it's possible for that one to find enjoyment in some aspects of it (like I don't LOVE reviewing payslips, say, but if I put on some music and make some coffee, I can get into it)

Sorry Folks, I really should think stuff through before I post.

Basically, Yonic got it. I don't know if the rewards gained by being a parent are split as evenly as normally assumed. I wasn't sure whether this was a gender issue or a personal one. Yonic thinks the latter.

I suppose the whole risks associated with pregnancy and childbirth may impart something to a mother/child relationship that a father/child can't replicate. It's not like bonding doesn't crop up in the most bizarre situations - societal Stockholm syndrome with abused women for example.

Equally PND can push a mother and child apart .

I do think the immediate bond between mother and newborn can be stronger than that between the baby and the father (although if is common for mothers to struggle to bond). But I definitely believe that over time if the father is a truly involved parent then he can develop just as strong a connection as the mother.

Interestingly, DH says that since his attitude has started to change he is enjoying the children a lot more.

I think the amount of "reward" (if we really must think in these terms) that comes from children is directly proportional to the amount of effort you put into them. Anything you give your attention to, especially you voluntary attention, reveals itself to be interesting, worthy of attention. Whole world/ grain of sand etc.

I am pleased to hear things are still heating in the right direction for you cailin. I have had some successes myself in recent weeks. Not least a huge discussion on feminism and my need for my husband to truly understand my life as a woman. Surprisingly he knew and understood much more than I had given him credit for. He must have been listening when I ranted about injustice.
His main fear was that I was no longer enjoying my life because I saw injustice everywhere. He wanted some balance.
I have felt more supported since then and have recently been able to take back some of my personal independence which had really improved my well being.
I think my husbands has seen the positive results of getting on board with the whole feminism thing in that I trust his motives much more.
Things are not perfect but there have been improvements.