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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

At last! A male feminist...

102 replies

Scarletohello · 24/09/2014 18:36

This kind of thing is just so rare I felt I had to share it. Curious to know what you think of it. He certainly seems genuine...

www.independent.co.uk/voices/comment/being-a-feminist-is-a-nobrainer-for-me--why-cant-it-be-for-all-men-9753410.html

OP posts:
OP posts:
AnyFucker · 24/09/2014 18:50

I dunno

I would call what he is saying there "being a decent person" actually

I applaud him speaking out, but I don't think it deserves any extra cookies from me

I understand though that getting more men on board is a good thing, so I feel a bit sour for saying that

The thing is though, I have always felt that preaching to the converted is a bit of a waste of time

But if articles like that make it easier for men to put their head above the parapet, I'll go with and say no more

thedancingbear · 24/09/2014 20:06

As a man, I'll go with every word of that, except the suggestion that I should feel guilt for the deplorable actions of others. Embarrassment and anger, yes, but can anyone explain guilt to me?

For the avoidance of doubt, I'm not looking to pick a row I'm genuinely interested in what theory of morality people think could make culpable for the actions of a twat in a white van, or John Warboys, or Henry VIII.

AnyFucker · 24/09/2014 20:11

I don't hold men in general responsible for those atrocities, tdb, I hold the individuals responsible

what gets a bit more difficult is when we start examining the patriarchal system that allows crap like that to flourish

PetulaGordino · 24/09/2014 20:25

tdb - i am a white woman. i like to think i am not racist, i will challenge prejudice in others, and i have never to my knowledge committed a racist act.

however, despite my revulsion of racism i have benefited enormously from the racist acts of my forebears and of our society's structure, past and present, which affords me more privilege than a black woman (for example) in the same position

i didn't choose that, obviously, but my health, wealth and welfare will likely fare better due to this privilege. this is not guaranteed, as of course i'm an individual, but chances are that even if i am unlucky or stupid i will be better cared for and better able to access the help and resources i need.

do i feel guilty about this? actually i do. i didn't cause this, and i do my best to mitigate against it, but who knows who i have trampled on through my unconscious privilege? i bimble along trying not to throw my privilege about, trying to think about what sort of impact my actions might have on other people, but it would be hugely arrogant of me to assume that i get everything right in that regard. after all, i am not free from the need to house, clothe and feed myself and others, nor of a desire for nice things, fun experiences, and an interesting job

i do feel guilty that through an accident of birth my path through life is likely to be easier than it might be for less privileged groups. it doesn't consume me, but it does make me think about how i conduct myself and what impact my actions have on others

thedancingbear · 24/09/2014 20:26

I agree with that anyfucker but in what way is any given man alive now responsible for the patriarchal system? It's not something I'm a fan of and I could identify ways in which it's disadvantaged me (whilst also recognising that it's probably done me favours at various points, and also that some women will have suffered much worse). It's something that I feel I've chipped away at in my own quiet and very minor way over the years, and I think there are many (but still too few) men who have done the same. Why should people like me feels some sort of collective guilt for being male?

PetulaGordino · 24/09/2014 20:32

i don't think anyone is going to try to force you to feel guilty, that's really up to you. ralph jones does, that's where his thought processes and feelings have led him. i don't think it's compulsory. i'm sure there are people who would be upset by my post above, saying that they don't want me to feel guilty on their behalf and it's patronising. i get that too.

AnyFucker · 24/09/2014 20:34

then carry on chipping away at it in your own way, whilst accepting that you benefit from it every day

it's possible to do both

AnyFucker · 24/09/2014 20:35

and now I find myself trying to make you feel better

you see how that works ?

women making men feel better about their own unearned privilege....

thedancingbear · 24/09/2014 20:35

i do feel guilty that through an accident of birth my path through life is likely to be easier than it might be for less privileged groups. it doesn't consume me, but it does make me think about how i conduct myself and what impact my actions have on others

I think that's interesting, but i think my point is - is that sensation of guilt justified by any objective moral test.

For my part, I was lucky enough to be born white and male, but unlucky to be born (seriously, by Western standards) poor, with a (minor) disability. I've always felt that these offset against each other, so in my mind I'm justified in not feeling guilt about being white or male. But the same rationale surely extends to so many others. A man with no use of his legs should not feel guilty about his male privilege. A man living in a hut in Burkina Faso doesn't need to feel guilty about his privilege.

Sorry if this is derailing (especially given I'm the wrong gender, though I sort of feel more justified in posting on this thread than others), I just think it's an interesting side question. This is especially so if feminism wants to better engage with decent men (which I accept isn't a universal viewpoint).

AnyFucker · 24/09/2014 20:36

I could tell you to stop your whining, and it would be your reaction to that which would be far more telling

but I won't Smile

thedancingbear · 24/09/2014 20:38

AnyFucker, I'm not asking you to make me feel better (though thanks for your efforts) - as explained above, I don't feel any male guilt. I'm just interested on an intellectual level what the rationale for that guilt would be.

AskBasil · 24/09/2014 20:41

Eugh. Don't look at the comments.

AnyFucker · 24/09/2014 20:42

I never look at the comments. They make me lose my cool.

PetulaGordino · 24/09/2014 20:43

i'm not sure an objective moral test comes into it when you're comparing individuals like that. it's not like you get a privilege score card that you have to produce everywhere you go people will do that for you anyway. i have other privileges other than being white - i don't have any disabilities, for example. i do my best to take this and other things into account as i conduct myself in different situations

statistically, you are likely to be better off than a woman who was, by accident of birth, born into poverty and with a disability. i'm sure there are individual examples of individual women born into that situation who are now better off than you, but overall chances are that men in your situation may be better able to access the resources they need than women. (note i'm not saying that this is definite - i am far from an expert and you will know better than i do whether this is the case)

that's how privilege works - all things other things being equal, there is a difference

thedancingbear · 24/09/2014 20:48

that's how privilege works - all things other things being equal, there is a difference

Understood, petula. I think we are agreeing.

CrewElla · 24/09/2014 20:49

It's like a bloody wet paint sign, after the comments are pointed out to me I have to read them and so the politicisation continues.

I'm not sure about his article, my first reaction was that he was being a bit too self satisfied but then I think I'm being unkind. I think I will need to reread it.

MaxGuevara · 24/09/2014 20:50

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

PacificDogwood · 24/09/2014 20:52

I think men should feel 'guilty' of their privilege for the same reason I sometimes feel 'guilty' for being German - accident of birth, both, but certain things remain a collective responsibility or something one must be held accountable for, even if not directly or personally responsible for.

Oh gawd, Goodwin's Law Blush - I am awfully guilty of invoking it these days.

thedancingbear · 24/09/2014 21:00

Morals aren't objective, are they?

Yes they are Smile. A whole nother discussion. Let's not go there.

If you think chipping away at patriarchy is a good thing to do, is it a productive use of our collective time and energy to be a) piqued about someone else feeling guilty, and b) expecting us to validate that feeling? Does that make a constructive contribution to gender equality?

I'm not piqued by him feeling guilty, I just can't identify with it. Any I do think the male response to feminism is relevant, at least on this thread.

I mentioned above that I didn't want to derail, so I think I'll duck out of this one.

thedancingbear · 24/09/2014 21:01

Sorry one last thing. pacificdogwood, I have German friends who feel like this and I find the idea ludicrous (not that they do feel guilty, but that they should, IYSWIM.

PacificDogwood · 24/09/2014 21:04

Oh, my life does not revolved around these feelings and I know there is not 'need' to feel some kind of strange 'guilt by association', yet it's still there.
Funny how most men do NOT feel like that.

thedancingbear · 24/09/2014 21:05

For god's sake, PacificDogwood, why the need for a dig?

PansOtherPeople · 24/09/2014 21:07

fwiw..not convinced..makes good 'copy' and speaks to the 'converted'. Also def. reacting badly to the 'guilt' thing. And I'd like to know a bit more about he especially has passed up opportunities, gave way on important practical matters, supported the women in his life and generally actually did somethings.

and..
then carry on chipping away at it in your own way, whilst accepting that you benefit from it every day

it's possible to do both

It's essentially about being the better part of yourself, as a man, as I've said a few times

AnyFucker · 24/09/2014 21:07

dig ? Confused