Have you seen the Emma Watson Speech?

[Sallystyle]

Awesome

www.upworthy.com/her-voice-might-tremble-but-emma-watsons-message-is-strong-and-clear?c=ufb1

I don't know how old it is or anything but it is really good

Well done to Emma Watson - it's a good speech and she has acquitted herself well. It won't change the parts of the world where forced marriage, female illiteracy, domestic violence, rape and very low pay for women (cf men) is considered acceptable or even "tradition", but one thing I hope is that many girls will listen or read it and think, "yes, I don't have to put up with those stereotypes and false expectations". I hope it will also persuade teens (esp teen and pre teen girls) to put away their smartphones and refuse to join in the Instagram and Snapchat "competitions" where they try to outpose each other in photos to gain "likes" and hence validation and confidence. My generation didn't have to deal with that (and women & girls were not as sexualised by media as they are today) but now society has, shamefully, gone backwards. Two of the "songs" (if you can even call them that) with the most high profiles this year were Anaconda (Nicki Minaj) and that Booty thing with Jennifer Lopez & Iggy Azalea?? - really? After women's suffrage and marches in the 60s....this is what we have come to? We are currently in an age where sex crimes against women and - shockingly - young girls are on the rise, not decline. We all need to do something instead of muttering "well, it's freedom of expression, free speech and all" or "it's not my problem, it hasn't happened to me yet".

Some responses to 4chan threats:

www.vox.com/2014/9/23/6832243/the-sexual-threats-against-emma-watson-are-an-attack-on-women

www.theguardian.com/film/2014/sep/23/feminists-rally-emma-watson-4chan-nude-photo-threats

www.theguardian.com/women-in-leadership/2014/sep/23/hackers-tried-silence-emma-watson-naked-photos-but-made-her-voice-louder

A brilliant speech, that I expected to feel cynical about because I usually do with feminist stuff.

She's spot on that the word feminism has become unpopular, and she addressed the reason why that is, and fight against it, very well.

I liked the way she addressed the fact that men don't do well out of the current status quo either, because equal rights are more important to me than promoting female rights.

oh for gods sake woo woo owl. of course we all want equal rights. it's not like we want to tear men down to our level, we want to raise ourselves up to theirs. You can't want equal rights without wanting women's rights.

woowooowl would you say you are a feminist then after hearing EW's speech?

I saw the vox one Petula thought it was interesting.

I just hope that EW can hold her head up and be proud of herself , and ignore the pathetic trolls who are so brave hiding in their darkened rooms spewing out their vitriol safe behind a keyboard.

Knowing it is only a minority compared to the hundreds of positive reactions is one thing, but actually ignoring the negativity and bile must be so hard.

Remember Mary Beard and how awful some reactions were to something she said?

I think men should be involved. A male friend of mine was ranting that the books sent home from school often have women going off and being brave or doing something amazing (being an astronaut or something) and the man left at home is portrayed as utterly useless and is the humour for the story. I told him he was a victim of the patriarchy but he didn't get it, he thought he was a victim of feminism.

So there were no 4chan threats, it was a publicity stunt by a shitty company called Rantic.
www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/2014/09/24/emma-watson-nude-photos-hoax-rantic_n_5871730.html

You can't want equal rights without wanting women's rights.

Maybe not, but you can want women's rights without wanting equal rights.

Petula, I honestly don't know. I don't really identify with the feminist movement that I know of, but I will admit it's not something I've looked into a huge amount. I've always been put off by talk of the hated patriarchy, and stuff I have read in recent years, mostly on here, has been very off putting.

Maybe not, but you can want women's rights without wanting equal rights

How, though, in reality?
That sounds as though you think feminists are arguing for a matriarchy, a total inversion of current values. No, they want rid of the sex based hierarchy.

thanks for that agapanthers. "celebrity publicists"?? if that is true, how utterly misguided to trample all over EW to make a statement. apart from anything else we already know that there are some pretty despicable people who use 4chan (NA4CUALT i'm sure), there's no need to fake it.

Because you can't fight for equality when only promoting the things that need to change for women. As a woman, I think there are things in society that work in my favour, more than they would for a man. Obviously, there are things that work in favour of men over women as well, but I don't want to be part of a movement that fights for change on one side and not the other.

That's why the EW speech really spoke to me, and is the first time I've heard a something connected to feminism talk about equal rights for everyone as opposed to equal rights on some things for women.

Yes, if they had wanted to make a publicity stunt, it was very unreasonable to use a random celebrity, who, I can only assume, has not consented.

Enb76.... You make a good point. More men don't complete suicide because of feminism or women, they do it because of the pressures put on them from Patriarchy and male gender roles/socialisation. Men arent seen in a couple of adverts and a couple of books as being bumbling fools when in a domestic situation because of feminism, but because Patriarchy and their socialisation tells them that domestic work is valueless and beneath them, therefore men in those roles are 'less men' and can be safely portrayed as fools.

Feminism is about liberating women from Patriarchy. It is therefore completely about equal rights, not about taking rights away from men. It astounds me that people persist in perpetuating the lie that that's not what it's about.

It's great to see some positive and pragmatic responses to this. No, obviously feminists aren't all man-haters; that's a myth that needs to be dealt with. However, I feel it's true that there is a heavy stream of rhetoric that positions men as the enemy and, whilst that is entirely understandable, serves a purpose only as a provocative hard edge. That's fine, but collaboration is also required because gender roles effect both sexes and not just women (yes, they detrimentally effect women more, but that's not my point). Both sexes, therefore, need to have a dialogue.

I guess the relative positions on this are the same as in any divisive matter; some will want negotiation and diplomacy and some will want to march on the enemy base taking no prisoners. Both have valid positions, neither is entirely right or wrong.... but personally, I believe in dialogue rather than whataboutery.

Your last sentence doesn't make sense to me Puffins, it seems to contradict itself. If feminism is about equal rights, then why is it about liberating women from the patriarchy instead of being about liberating everyone from the patriarchy, or breaking down the patriarch altogether? Especially as you can see that men suffer from it too?

women are the ones most detrimentally affected, and the ones with the least power overall. hence feminists will focus on women's rights and liberation - it's redressing the balance. fighting for the ones with the most rights overall only serves to widen the gap

by doing away with the gender hierarchy men who don't fit into that will also benefit. there will be men (and presumably a small number of women) who would experience negative consequences of this change - those for whom the gender hierarchy works as it currently stands.

That's why the EW speech really spoke to me, and is the first time I've heard a something connected to feminism talk about equal rights for everyone as opposed to equal rights on some things for women.

feminist have being going on about how patriarchy hurts men too, since forever. But the focus is necessarily on women as they do worse under it. So, liberating women from it and bringing women up to men's level.

The aim of feminism is to break down the patriarchy. Everyone can be the person they want to be rather than stuck in a rigid little box (which may be quite comfortable for many people but limiting for all)

x posts Petula :)

Sorry you don't understand woowoo. I'm probably not the best person to explain it either. Well, not in a way that won't make you cross anyway.

However.....

In general, men own the power in the world. Individual men have difficult lives, but on the whole they are at an advantage over women in similar situations. Patriarchy entrenches and enshrines this power. Individual men suffer from certain parts of Patriarchy, but on the whole they gain from it. Women as a class suffer from Patriarchy, they gain nothing from it. Therefore, liberating women from it is as important as smashing it. Maybe more so, as men as a class benefit from it and have a vested interest in maintaining the status quo.

As I said, I'm not the best person to explain it.

Whereas Petula and 7days are!

Petula I thought we agreed that the patriarchal heirarchy is the problem? We have a system where men and women are both conditioned to act and behave in a certain way. Fighting a system that effects us all isn't the same as fighting for men's rights. My personal take on what is happening here is that there is a separate movement emerging that doesn't wish to see the pursuit of women's rights as a men vs women scenario, but one where we're all in it together for the benefit of everyone.

That, for me, fits in with the view that 'patriarchy hurts men too'; if that's a concept that you believe in then you can't really have a problem with people being involved with doing something about that.

Thank you for all the explanations! And for being nice about it instead of jumping down my throat, which has happened before when I've saison stuff like this.

I do get all of that, I just personally would prefer to be part of a movement that fought equally on behalf of everyone that is negatively affected by the patriarchy.

While more women than men are negatively affected by it, as individuals I think it hurts men more. There is more stigma attached to men showing traditionally female qualities, or doing traditionally female jobs than there is the other way around. I think that's just as important, so while I'm happy to promote rights for women, I'd rather promote equality, which if don't think can be done well without acknowledging that there are areas where women are better off than men.

Puffins, I think you explained that very well

where have i said that i have a problem with people being involved with doing something about that?