Have you seen the Emma Watson Speech?

[Sallystyle]

Awesome

www.upworthy.com/her-voice-might-tremble-but-emma-watsons-message-is-strong-and-clear?c=ufb1

I don't know how old it is or anything but it is really good

Also, the aim was launching the heforshe thing. Obviously no idea whether that will be worthwhile or not yet. So if her words got enough men to sign up then the goal has been achieved. Obviously there are discussions to be had about whether the ends justify the means, or whether heforshe is useful from a feminist POV. But from a UN pov she seems to be on-message

Thanks for the link TheBeanpole. She picks up on most of the things that bothered me. Such as the framing of women as "mothers sisters daughters" rather than people in our own right. I actually winced when Emma came to that bit.

And I agree that if a woman of colour had got up and made that speech she wouldn't have had anything like as receptive a reaction.

I've listened to the speech again and it has actually started to really piss me off now. I don't want to diss Emma who is only young and involved in a big organization which isn't exactly known for its radical feminist politics. Hopefully she'll learn. She is very much of the "gender is a spectrum which hurts everybody and we are all individuals" generation. Class analysis is seen as old hat by her generation. That's what her speech was missing for me; class analysis and reference to the dynamic of power and subordination and the violence against girls and women used in order to maintain the status quo.

I do agree with you beachcomber. But I don't think she would have been able to do any differently with that platform and that project.

Oh and this bit of the speech is pissing me right off;

How can we affect change in the world when only half of it is invited or feel welcome to participate in the conversation?

Yup. Of course. The osbstacle to achieving "gender equality" is women excluding men.

Why do I feel like I have just been gaslighted?

I know Petula. I'm not attacking Emma herself.

No no I know you're not. It's tricky because I don't want to say she's not saying what she believes, and standing up and saying even very mild and inclusive things has earned her some pretty disgusting comments online so it's pretty brave even if it is just a peek over the parapet by many feminists' standards, but nor do I think that she would have found it easy to say anything stronger under those circumstances

I've been thinking a lot about this speech. I'm really conflicted as well.

On one hand, I don't think there is any one solution to the problem of gender inequality, so I don't see this approach being mutually exclusive with other forms of consciousness-raising etc. People can disagree on why a problem exists, and they can disagree on how to solve it and they can still work towards a common goal. But aligning on who (everyone) and when (now) is important and I liked that aspect of the speech. And after all, it needs to be those in power who dismantle a power imbalance.

On the other hand, it feels like it uses a stereotypical "female" (soft, compliant, cajoling, taking some blame implicitly for the problem, allowing false equivalence in order to avoid alienating) speaking to "male" form of speech, which could be argued just makes things worse by cementing the existing privilege. But perhaps it's about communication principles - always speak to your audience in their language (you won't reach the average sociology academic with Daily Fail articles, you won't reach the average taxi driver with papers from peer reviewed journals)...

I've been trying to think of another way to achieve the aim of bringing forward an equality agenda without being dismissed as strident / paranoid and I'm struggling to...

Lovely speech. The more younger women (and men) embrace feminism the better. Good for her. The be bossy message is good. It is high time women could be in charge, take decisions, control things, be the boss without that being seen as negative or male or wrong.

Still pondering. I think that the language (that some have interpreted as implying that "men haven't been involved until now as women didn't ask nicely enough") is a symptom of the problem. If the problem didn't exist (inequality) then the speech wouldn't be necessary. As the problem exists, the form of words is probably necessary.

And yy I love the fact that the speech challenges the idea that feminist=misandrist.

I think yes, Buffy, for all the issues with the choice of words, I will sort of take it where we can get it. Heaps of people who wouldn't otherwise align themselves with feminism have listened, and hopefully started thinking. And for some of them, that will lead to discovering more.

The UN and its agencies, as someone said above, has some way to go before it incorporates a proper power analysis into its own work. For them, I suspect this is fairly radical.

If she had said the things I would like, I imagine it would not have gone viral.

I agree that if there had been a class analysis in there it wouldn't have gone viral.

No. What goes viral is pretty young white woman imploring men to listen to the idea that gender harms men.

I get it. I get it. I don't agree with it though. I felt better when I went to the website and it does focus on women. The name "HeForShe" is dreadful , it is so paternalistic (how ironic).

I don't like HeForShe cos it sounds so "John4Jane 4ever!" but that's probably not a UN concern...

if ally fogg didn't like it then it must be doing something right

I don't know Ally Fogg, but perhaps he's on some super-liberal flip saying that men are socialised to commit violence against women, so it's not really their fault. They are the victims of a system that makes them treat women that way and, heh, let's not victim blame here!

Buffy, the parody is great, but I would love the opportunity to wear something other than a suit for every single formal occasion

Ally Fogg, for example, is a misogynistic dickhead.

I wouldn't expect anything better from him.

And, yes, I know, childish!

Finding myself in a strange position here, but:

"I think it is true that there is still far too little space in mainstream media and culture for men to have those kinds of conversations, especially when they place men in roles of which patriarchal masculinity disapproves as vulnerable, as helpless, as victims. So I understand the frustration of men who care deeply about issues such as male victims of sexual or domestic violence, and find themselves marginalised or excluded from coverage of the issues. The solution to that problem is for us to work harder (and better) to carve open our own spaces in the mainstream, not to march in and co-opt womens spaces or threads."

Isn't that similar to what you just said Buffy?

i don't disagree with every single thing ally fogg says. and he is at least honest when he states that he believes feminism would bring him personally lots of negatives and not many positives and that is why he is not a feminist. but he can be pretty objectionable

"s. But what I don't do is attempt to whip up opposition to it, despite thinking it might well help some people, simply because it isn't aimed specifically at an issue I care about."

Yup.