Have you seen the Emma Watson Speech?

[Sallystyle]

Awesome

www.upworthy.com/her-voice-might-tremble-but-emma-watsons-message-is-strong-and-clear?c=ufb1

I don't know how old it is or anything but it is really good

"While more women than men are negatively affected by it, as individuals I think it hurts men more. There is more stigma attached to men showing traditionally female qualities, or doing traditionally female jobs than there is the other way around."
But that's surely a result of viewing women -and stereotypically female qualities, jobs etc- as weaker than men?

Probably sounds stupid but I feel (hope) that the "silent majority" agree with EW (see comments on DM page - largely really positive). What baffles me is how the lowest common denominator teenage boy retrograde view of women is so dominant and pandered to in our society? "They" are a minority I would hope yet popular culture, newspapers, magazines, pop videos etc all cater to that group/world view thereby strengthening it. Probably not making sense but I know what I mean!

Yes, it probably is.

So the message needs be that it's ok for women to display traditional male qualities and that it's ok for men to display traditionally female qualities, until the time comes that they are just understood to be human qualities.

I don't want to promote the former without also promoting the latter, which is why I've tended to be put off feminism as I've seen it.

7Days

"Everyone can be the person they want to be rather than stuck in a rigid little box."

I think we should acknowledge that huge gains have been made in this regard in a comparatively short space of time. I don't think people recognise a view that says that things are just as bad as they've always been. A prima facie view suggests otherwise.

Petula That's what I took your comments to mean.

feminists don't want to do that woowooowl, seriously, because it doesn't benefit women at all for it not to be ok for men to display traditional female qualities. because what you end up with is women in a position of having to expertly handle both the traditionally female and traditionally male roles (e.g. in charge of housework and childcare plus wage earning work), with men still only doing the traditionally male roles (e.g. wage earning work). which is arguably the situation for many women today

Well, that's good, I'm glad to hear it! So why then is it that that is the way they have come across to me every time I've tried to read anything about the feminist movement (until now)?

there is a huge difference between feminist activism benefiting men as well as women, and feminist activist energies being applied to issues that only improve the lot of men

i am hugely supportive of groups who are working on men's problems (provided they aren't blaming feminists for those problems), such as organisations working to reduce the prevalence of male suicide (a friend of a friend has set up one such organisation), or support for men on the receiving end of intimate partner violence

but my activist energies, limited as they are, will go into those initiatives that best serve women, such as combating male violence and challenging gender stereotypes. the fact that challenging those things will also benefit those men that are harmed by the patriarchy (men are at significant risk of male violence too; gender stereotypes are harmful to men too), is a good thing, but it is not my primary focus given that women are so far behind as a group

sorry, that was a x-post

i'm not sure why that hasn't been coming across, as i don't know what/where you've been reading. i hesitate to say it's the fault of feminists though.

It's a personal thing I guess, and the thing you would want to actively promote doesn't have to be the thing that I would actively want to promote.

As I said, stuff I have read recently has tended to be on here, but there's also been the odd link posted by Facebook friends.

But I think part of the problem is dividing things up into men's problems and women's problems in the first place. They are society's problems, we all have husbands, wives, sisters, brothers, sons and daughters. Most of us have close and loving relationships with a member of the opposite sex, so what is a problem for one is automatically a problem for the other the way I see it.

absolutely - i'm not going to go up to someone raising money for cancer and tell them that they should be raising money for alzheimer's as well / instead

i do agree with you that what is a problem for one should be a problem for the other. but when you have a group that sees fewer negative consequences of society's problems (and for some of that group, significant benefits), and another group that sees the lion's share of negative consequences of society's problems (and only a handful receiving the benefits), then you need to be able to identify and name those groups otherwise how can you tackle them?

Yes I did.

Unfortunately, in our present power dynamic, Patriarchy, men hole the power to change theses things, not women. If men really thought that they were affected more by Patriarchy, then they would be and are in a better position to change that.

Which particular bits of Patriarchy do you see as negatively affecting women more but hurting individual men more? I'm not trying to goad, I am genuinely interested in your thoughts.

if in reality a problem for one was automatically taken on board as a problem for the other then the relationships board on MN would be a much quieter place

This is how it is; we can all pretty much agree on the overarching aspects, but when you get further into it there are those who think that we should all be working on this together and those that take an essentially divisive view. That alienates a lot of people. I also think its a shame because it contributes to the aggression.

contributes to what aggression?

there have always been different strands of feminism. feminists are individuals, not the borg, it's to be expected. do men in groups agree on everything?

tbh estorilian i have found your choice of language in some of your posts somewhat... problematic