Have you seen the Emma Watson Speech?

[Sallystyle]

Awesome

www.upworthy.com/her-voice-might-tremble-but-emma-watsons-message-is-strong-and-clear?c=ufb1

I don't know how old it is or anything but it is really good

The threats to EW are covered in several papers today - i expect the sites mentioned will get more visits...

It is a great speech (I've only read it but will watch it later).

But I am a little & that the way to get men more involved in feminism and equality is to tell them (even if very eloquently) that it will benefit them!! So the best thing about us all being feminists is it will benefit the men!! Fucking hell.

And yes it will.

but ... Really!? Am I the only one that thinks it is very sad that the major push to get men involved more in equality and feminism is to make it all about the men

Sorry if this doesn't make sense, but I've been thinking a lot about this today and feel quite uncomfortable, so want to talk it through.

On one hand, I sincerely hope that this points out that feminism does recognise that the way society stands is harmful to men and women (more so to women). For example, I have known men who've lost children feel unable to express their emotions over it because they feel it is their place to be strong for the woman. That is by no means More important than the immense sexism women encounter, or as widespread, but it is there. Hopefully we won't have such an extreme reaction to feminism if men know we're not saying they're all bastards, but that we want to help all people regardless of gender.

On the other hand, I can't imagine any other oppressed group pandering so much to the group of people oppressing them. The only example I can think of is slaves saying 'We know you don't mean to keep us in chains, and of course we recognise that you're having a really hard time of it too, but maybe if you let us go we'll all be happier for it?'

(Sorry if that's a really shit comparison, I'm just trying to say that it feels a bit... off.) I don't know. I've seen Emma Watson have a really shit response to this speech and I'm sad and angry and want to do something, but it seems everyone's against feminism.

makes all too uncomfortable sense to me Violet

i agree with the issue of getting men on board because it will benefit them rather than because it's the right thing to do, and the pandering aspect, though i also read her words more as "why the hell aren't you on board already? it makes sense".

but the thing that the reaction (of threatening to release photos) brings home to me is that actually what she is saying is pretty "mild" - for example she doesn't mention male violence and/or rape. and yet still she is on the receiving end of threats. i dread to think what DMs she has received via twitter. it is really, really difficult for women to stick their head even slightly above the parapet

I think it's a great speech ANC a great campaign. I shared it on my Facebook with the words that when equality is achieved it will benefit both men and women. That is, I believe, the message she is sharing.

I am incensed by the response by 4chan. Not surprised, but I am furious.

If you want proof that 4chan are not as unrepresentative as all that, all you need to do is read the comments below any Telegraph article that puts forward a remotely pro-women's rights message. I fear the comments on her speech will be virulently sexist and for that reason I'm not going to look at them either.

Ooh, I knew I missed something out.

Didn't mean to say Emma Watson was pandering, everything she said was very sensible. It's just that the backlash from, as petula says, what is really quite a mild speech, with not one drop of man blaming backs up that women seem to need to be Really careful about saying anything at all about women not being treated as equal.

It seems to be like we're always being told not be be so horrible, saying men might do bad things. Like women are being blamed for their own bad treatment by not being nicer about it.

Violetcrowd

I thought that the tone of the speech was that men and women are both oppressed by the patriarchal nature of gender stereotypes and that, therefore, both should be involved with addressing attitudes that reinforce that. Your analogy of slavery doesn't seem to fit in that context does it? Slavery didn't 'hurt slavers too' so far as I can imagine.

What I took away from it was that we all need to look at a situation that effects all of us and we all ought to talk about it. IE Men need to talk about the male gender stereotype and male interaction with women. It's not directly about feminism, but the dividend that feminism might receive as a consequence of male reflection on gender issues. I saw it as feminism being part of a triumverate of women, men and women&men. As you point out, the male side does not compare in scale to the female side, but this is about initiating a movement that is very much in infancy (which feminism is not). Feminism supporting that movement is not, to my mind, 'pandering'. I don't see the problem with feminism providing support and encouragement as one would expect from any mentor.

'Here cometh the dreamer. Let's slay her and see what becomes of her dream.'

4Chan, they'll do their best to slay but boy will this blow up in their faces.

Ok, I still have my question; why are we so focussed on the internet loud-mouths that are abusing Emma Watson and not mentioning the very many men that are not? Granted not all are enthusiastically supportive - many will not even have noticed or taken much interest - but instead of getting behind and encouraging men that can help, why are we fixated on the attention-seeking naysayers?

"fixated" ??

why should we give praise men who are behaving with the minimum level of acceptability that we should expect? (i.e. praising them for not threatening to release photos that breach a woman's privacy)

great if men are enthusiastically supporting EW's words. but if people are trying to silence her with threats then they should be called out on that

they're not attention seeking (focus on male motivation) but harm causing (focus on female harm)

Estorilian - I don't mean to say that slavers were hurt by slavery, I was trying to say how weird I'd find it if slaves were saying those sorts of things. It was a shit example.

I, and many others (I imagine, can't speak for everyone) have absolutely no issue with men being involved with feminism. It's a good thing. Of course it is, we all need to be on board with this. It's just that, feminists seem to be shouted down so often even when not saying anything controversial, that sometimes it seems like we are expected to pander to men and be careful not to say anything that might be offensive.

These bad reactions hurt, and even though it is a minority of people coming out with the nasty crap, it is happening a lot. Which is why it is discussed a lot.

your use of language is interesting Estorilian

You've phrased your question differently, but I'd hoped I'd already made a case for the benefits of mentoring and promoting male interest. I'd also kind of suggested why we may not want to be all about 'calling out' the worst excesses of push-back - but, yes, that's what the fixation seems to be. EW asked why feminists are all seen as shouty man-hating women; I'm just following that thought process. Let's, for the sake of argument, pretend that you were an averagish man that had spent little time really thinking about gender roles and behaved "with the minimum level of acceptability that we should expect" but having seen EW's speech, stumbled on this thread. How would it be percieved? What would be his main takeaways? Surely the whole idea is for these normal and primarily decent men to get onboard? I'm asking what the best way for that to be achieved is and whether getting shouty about 4chan types helps or hinders what I see as the main effort.

I guess that what I'm thinking violet is that by worrying about the people that are never going to be won over, we fail to speak to the ones that might.

it's not about worrying about 4chan's views, and no one here is trying to win them over. it's about worrying about EW's safety, privacy, right to a voice, as well as that of all the other women who want to talk about feminism.

I absolutely agree Petula; that is a great over-arching aim. I'm pondering the means by which we achieve that.

Worrying about / calling out.. . Ok, so you're 'calling out' the 4chan types.

It's possible to point out the moral message ("all people are created equal" etc) and the self-interest message ("when all races (say) have a fair part in the labour market then the country overall will be more productive and prosperous ")

I think you've made some very good points Estorilian.

wol1968 it's true - it's not like misogyny is a minority stance

Lovely speech. Hope her intended audience were listening and that she's not too disappointed if they're not.

I wish boys were taught in school that only the weak and the unintelligent mock or are threatened by equality, so that in time, mocking eQuality became like expressing racist views. even racists keep their views quiet now as it's become unacceptable to air them. That must have helped.

Why can't we teach boys at school that it is lazy and entitled to expect privileges purely because they're male, and remind them that the best amongst them won't be threatened by equality.

It was oh so predictable that a woman who says even the mildest, least offensive thing about equality, would be punished for her non-compliance.

The hatred so many men feel for women is frightening and yet we have to reassure them that we don't hate them when talking about equality. They don't feel the need to reassure us they don't hate us when they play devil's advocate about equality.

Pah.